5619 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT EASTERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK 2 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - X 3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, : CR 96 1016(S-1) 4 v. : U.S. Courthouse 5 Uniondale, New York BRUCE W. GORDON, WHO'S WHO 6 WORLD WIDE REGISTRY, INC., : STERLING WHO'S WHO, INC., 7 TARA GARBOSKI, ORAL FRANK : OSMAN, LAURA WEITZ, ANNETTE 8 HALEY, SCOTT MICHAELSON, : STEVE RUBIN, and MARTIN 9 REFFSIN, : TRANSCRIPT OF TRIAL 10 Defendants. :February 25, 1998 11 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - X 9:30 o'clock a.m.
12 BEFORE:
13 HONORABLE ARTHUR D. SPATT, U.S.D.J. and a jury 14 APPEARANCES: 15 For the Government: ZACHARY W. CARTER 16 United States Attorney One Pierrepont Plaza 17 Brooklyn, New York 11201 By: RONALD G. WHITE, ESQ. 18 CECIL SCOTT, ESQ. Assistant U.S. Attorneys 19 For the Defendants: NORM
AN TRABULUS, ESQ. 20 For Bruce W. Gordon 170 Old Country Road, Suite 600 21 Mineola, New York 11501
22 EDWARD P. JENKS, ESQ. For Who's Who Worldwide 23 Registry, Inc. and Sterling Who's, Who, Inc. 24 332 Willis Avenue Mineola, New York 11501 25 (cont'd)
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5620
1 APPEARANCES (cont'd):
2 GARY SCHOER, ESQ. For Tara Garboski 3 6800 Jericho Turnpike Syosset, New York 11791 4 ALAN M. NELSON, ESQ. 5 For Oral Frank Osman 3000 Marcus Avenue 6 Lake Success, New York 11042
7 WINSTON LEE, ESQ. For Laura Weitz 8 319 Broadway New York, New York 10007 9 MARTIN GEDULDIG, ESQ. 10 For Annette Haley 400 South Oyster Bay Road 11 Hicksville, New York 11801
12 JAMES C. NEVILLE, ESQ. For Scott Michaelson 13 225 Broadway New York, New York 10007 14 THOMAS F.X. DUNN, ESQ. 15 For Steve Rubin 150 Nassau Street 16 New York, New York 10038
17 JOHN S. WALLENSTEIN, ESQ. For Martin Reffsin 18 215 Hilton Avenue Hempstead, New York 11551 19
20 Court Reporter: HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR United States District Court 21 Two Uniondale Avenue Uniondale, New York 11553 22 (516) 485-6558
23 Proceedings recorded by mechanical stenography, transcript 24 produced by Computer-Assisted Transcription 25
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5621
1 M O R N I N G S E S S I O N
2
3 (The following takes place in the absence of the
4 jury.)
5 THE COURT: I remind the male persons present not
6 to use the men's bathroom on this floor. It is a while
7 since I reminded you. It is right across from the jury
8 room. You are not to use it. Use the bathroom upstairs.
9 And with that friendly greeting I say good
10 morning.
11 THE CLERK: Jury entering.
12 (Whereupon, the jury at this time entered the
13 courtroom.)
14 THE COURT: Good morning, members of the jury.
15 Please be seated.
16 Again my compliments, you are getting better as
17 we go along. If we keep this trial going from to August
18 and September, you will be here before I am. You will
19 never see the sunlight, either at morning or at night.
20 You may proceed.
21 MS. SCOTT: The government calls Thomas Skonie.
22 THE CLERK: Please rise and raise your right
23 hand. 24 25
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5622
1 T H O M A S R. S K O N I E ,
2 called as a witness, having been first
3 duly sworn, was examined and testified
4 as follows:
5
6 THE CLERK: Thank you. Please be seated.
7 Please state a
nd spell your full name for the
8 record.
9 THE WITNESS: My name is Thomas R. Skonie,
10 S K O N I E.
11
12 DIRECT EXAMINATION
13 BY MS. SCOTT:
14 Q Good morning, Mr. Skonie.
15 A Good morning.
16 Q Can you tell us where you live?
17 A Naperville, Illinois.
18 Q What do you do for a living in Illinois?
19 A I am a manufactures representative in the housewares
20 electronics, business.
21 Q What is the name of the company you work for?
22 A The name of the company is Walter Nye, N Y E, &
23 Company, Inc. 24 Q And what is your position with Walter Nye? 25 A President of the company.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5623 Skonie-direct/Scott
1 Q Can you describe for us briefly what your
2 responsibilities are?
3 A We represent manufacturers in the housewares and
4 electronics business, we are their contact sales agents,
5 most of these companies do not use a sales force, they use
6 us as an exclusive agent to represent people in their
7 territory, Wallgreens, Sears, Wards, and we are
8 compensated with a commission rate for doing that.
9 Q How long have you been the president of Walter Nye?
10 A I have been the president for 15 years.
11 Q Now, have you ever had any dealings with a company
12 called Who's Who Worldwide?
13 A Yes, I have.
14 Q Did you eventually make a purchase from that company?
15 A Yes, I did.
16 Q What did you buy?
17 A I was nominated to be a member in Who's Who Worldwide
18 and sent in an application fee, for which I received back
19 a plaque.
20 That's pretty much what I got.
21 Q Going back to your first contact, how were you first
22 contacted by the company?
23 A I receive
d a letter or solicitation in the mail 24 saying I had been nominated to be in Who's Who Worldwide. 25 And there was a short application or stub to send back, if
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5624 Skonie-direct/Scott
1 I was interested, which I completed. I sent back, and I
2 was at a later date, shortly after contacted by their
3 representative on the telephone.
4 Q Now, going back to the letter, do you remember
5 approximately when that arrived?
6 A It is about five years ago, so it would be 1994, in
7 that area.
8 Q I will show you Government's Exhibit 67-D, as in
9 Daniel, for Identification.
10 Do you recognize that?
11 (Handed to the witness.)
12 A Yes, I do.
13 Q What is that?
14 A That's the short response that I returned to them
15 with my signature on it saying that I was interested, or
16 would like to be included, or would like some more
17 information. It was a no obligation thing.
18 MS. SCOTT: I offer Government's Exhibit 67-D.
19 THE COURT: Any objection?
20 MR. TRABULUS: No.
21 THE COURT: Government's Exhibit 67-D, for Dog,
22 in evidence.
23 Q Now, Mr. Skonie, if you take a look at the lower 24 right-hand corner of that postcard, do you see a code 25 there in blue letters?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5625 Skonie-direct/Scott
1 A Yes, I do.
2 Q Can you tell us what that code says?
3 A GA group FM.
4 Q F as in Frank, M as in Michael?
5 A That's right.
6 Q If you turn the postcard over can you read us the
7 postmark on the back?
8 A It is post marked --
9 THE COURT: We don't know these names, so you
10 have to spell them when you get to them.
11 A Elk, E L K, Grove, G R O V E, village, Illinois,
12 September 10th, 1993.
13 Q Now, you mentioned that you received a telephone call
14 from the company?
15 A That's correct. After I filled this out, a person
16 from Who's Who called me up, and we spoke about becoming a
17 member.
18 Q Do you remember if this person was a man or a woman?
19 A A woman.
20 Q And can you tell us what this woman told you about
21 the company and the memberships?
22 A She told me that I had been nominated to be in Who's
23 Who. I asked her whom I had been nominated by. 24 She told me that the nomination was confidential, 25 and she could only tell me that I had in fact been
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5626 Skonie-direct/Scott
1 nominated.
2 She said it was a good organization, exclusive,
3 you know, very nice to
be in, prestigious. Would I like
4 to join?
5 And I said, yes.
6 Q What, if anything, did she say to you about how
7 members in general were selected?
8 A They were nominated by other people.
9 Q What were you told you would get for your money if
10 you purchased a membership?
11 A I was to get a plaque. And I was to get membership
12 in this group. The membership was the key thing for me.
13 Q Now, of all the things that were said to you about
14 this membership, what was the most important thing that
15 led you to make a purchase?
16 A Well, in the business I am in, which is the sales
17 business, it is largely a business, or a great part of it
18 is a business of contacts. The way we grow our business
19 is by meeting new people who may be in positions to, or be
20 affiliated with companies which would allow us to
21 represent them or sell their
goods for them. It is an
22 important part of the business. Most of the new lines or
23 manufacturers are ones we acquire from networking from 24 people we know, or know us, or who we have represented or 25 whom we had business relationships with.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5627 Skonie-direct/Scott
1 So, first of all, to be nominated, I assumed that
2 because I had represented several large companies at that
3 time, very large companies, and had good relationships
4 with the presidents of those companies at that time, it
5 was possible one of them had nominated. She would not
6 tell me who nominated me. But my assumption was that one
7 of them nominated me.
8 It would be bad for my business to have someone
9 like that nominate me and then for me to refuse it, and
10 then to assume I wasn't interested. That would have been
11 an endorsement.
12 The other thing was it would be a forum for me to
13 meet and grow new business. Perhaps I could be affiliated
14 with a company that we could represent and sell products
15 for them. It is an extremely large part of our business,
16 that's networking process.
17 Q Now, how, if at all, did your belief that you had
18 been nominated relate to your perception that this was a
19 networking tool that you could use?
20 A Well, she -- I specifically asked her how I had been
21 selected to be in this. She said I was nominated. It was
22 my assumption that I was nominated by someone I knew and
23 it would be a good thing for me. 24 It was also, she implied as part of this thing 25 you would get to network with people, or meet other
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5628 Skonie-direct/Scott
1 people
. And I assume that that would be very good for my
2 business, too. It seemed at the time that it would be a
3 positive thing.
4 MR. SCHOER: Objection, Judge, I don't believe
5 that that answer is responsive to the question.
6 THE COURT: First of all, please do not make any
7 statements except objection.
8 MR. SCHOER: Objection.
9 THE COURT: Now, I would have asked you what the
10 ground of the objection is, so no harm was done.
11 Your objection is that it is not responsive?
12 MR. SCHOER: Not responsive to the question that
13 was asked.
14 THE COURT: No. You are overruled.
15 Motion denied.
16 Q Now, if in fact your name had been obtained not by
17 nomination, but from a mailing list, would it have
18 affected your decision to make the purchase?
19 A I would not have purchased.
20 Q Why is that?
21 A Mailing lists by their very n
ature are general. I
22 have sold consumer products to direct response companies
23 for 25 years. I am familiar with the mailing list 24 process. And mailing lists are just exactly what the word 25 implies. It is a list of the people sent out, and it is a
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5629 Skonie-direct/Scott
1 numbers game. And the more you send out hopefully the
2 more responses you would get. And I would have not
3 partaken in something like that.
4 Q Now, the membership you purchased, do you remember
5 how much you paid for it?
6 A It was very expensive. It was in the high 200 dollar
7 range, 280, 290. It was expensive.
8 Q How did you pay for it?
9 A A credit card.
10 Q How did you give your credit card information to the
11 company?
12 A Over the telephone.
13 Q I will show you Government Exhi
bit 67-B as in Baker
14 for Identification.
15 Do you recognize that?
16 A Yes, I do.
17 Q What is it?
18 A The receipt or invoice from my Who's Who
19 application.
20 MS. SCOTT: I offer 67-B, as in Baker.
21 THE COURT: Any objection?
22 MR. TRABULUS: No.
23 THE COURT: Government's Exhibit 67-B, as in 24 Baker, in evidence. 25 (Government's Exhibit 67-B received in evidence.)
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5630 Skonie-direct/Scott
1 Q Does that invoice show the terms of your purchase?
2 A Yes, it does.
3 Q How much money does it show you paid?
4 A $297.
5 Q Can you tell us the date on the invoice?
6 A 9/21/93.
7 Q September 21st, 1993?
8 A Yes, sir.
9 Q Mr. Skonie, did you receive a plaque?
10 A Yes, I did.
11 Q Did you receive a directory from th
e company?
12 A No, I did not.
13 Q Did you receive any communications from the company
14 regarding the directory?
15 A Shortly after I received the plaque the company
16 called me back, and asked me if I wanted to purchase a
17 directory. And I believe they also had computer version,
18 a CD-ROM version. At which time I said, no.
19 I became kind of agitated, because I assumed that
20 when I joined it I would know who the other members were.
21 And it struck me that the process was becoming one where
22 it was just a contest to continually sell me something.
23 Q So, did you agree to purchase the directory? 24 A No, I didn't purchase the directory. At that time I 25 expressed my agitation with the person who called me on
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5631 Skonie-direct/Scott
1 the phone and asked let me not to call
me any more. I
2 didn't think it was a very good deal.
3 Q Did you see any letters from the company after that?
4 A Yes, I did.
5 We received -- I receive all the mail for
6 Mr. Nye, the founder of our company, Walter Nye. And
7 sometimes subsequent to that Mr. Nye received a letter in
8 the mail virtually identical to the letter I received.
9 And I responded for Mr. Nye that he was not interested
10 because he had been dead for ten years. And I also
11 responded that they should clean up their mailing list,
12 and that he obviously having been deceased that long, was
13 not a candidate for Who's Who.
14 Q Now, this letter you received from -- you say it was
15 identical to the letter you received?
16 A It was a different heading. One was worldwide. One
17 was Sterling. But it was the same type of letter. And I
18 was so agitated from the previous experience
with the
19 company, that when I saw this I wrote them a letter saying
20 this was not a very good thing to do.
21 Q Now, the second letter, the letter addressed to
22 Walter Nye, was that on Sterling Who's Who letterhead?
23 A Yes, sir. 24 Q And the original purchase you made was from Who's Who 25 Worldwide?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5632 Skonie-direct/Scott
1 A Yes.
2 Q And how is it you knew that the second letter was
3 connected with -- withdrawn.
4 A It was identical in any way, every way with the
5 letter I had received.
6 Q Did you receive anything else from either Sterling
7 Who's Who or Who's Who Worldwide after that?
8 A No.
9 MS. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. Skonie. No further
10 questions.
11 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
12 THE COURT: Cross-examination.
13 MR. TRABULU
S: Thank you.
14
15 CROSS-EXAMINATION
16 BY MR. TRABULUS:
17 Q Good morning, Mr. Skonie. My name is Norman
18 Trabulus, and I represent the gentleman seated next to
19 me.
20 A Good morning.
21 Q Mr. Skonie, I believe you indicated you became
22 agitated at a certain point; is that correct?
23 A That's correct. 24 Q And that was when you were contacted to pay 25 additional money for the directory; is that correct?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5633 Skonie-cross/Trabulus
1 A That's correct.
2 Q And before that you had received the plaque; is that
3 correct?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And at that point you were not agitated were you?
6 A I was not agitated, but I felt a little sheepish
7 about buying myself a plaque.
8 Q And that was -- at that point in time when you felt a
9 lit
tle sheepish, you had learned nothing about the company
10 or its product other than what you had been told over the
11 phone at that point, correct?
12 A I had learned that I had been nominated to be a
13 member.
14 Q What I meant is there was nothing knew you had
15 learned between the time you agreed to make the purchase
16 and the time you became sheepish; is that correct?
17 A I had not been contacted in that time period, no.
18 Q Is it correct to say that you felt sheepish on your
19 own, nothing happened to make you feel sheepish from the
20 company, it was a change in your own feelings; is that
21 right?
22 A That's true.
23 Q When you got the plaque, did you hang it up? 24 A No. 25 Q The plaque was basically the way it was described to
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5634 Skonie-cross/Trabulus
1 you on the phone, was it not?
2 A It was a plaque.
3 Q So, you feeling sheepish was basically a way you
4 yourself felt after feeling that way after making the
5 order; is that correct?
6 A That's correct.
7 Q You did not ask for a refund, did you?
8 A No.
9 Q And do you know what would have happened had you
10 asked for a refund?
11 A No, I don't.
12 Q You mentioned, sir, that you yourself are in the
13 sales business; is that correct?
14 A Yes, sir.
15 Q And your company is paid by commission?
16 A That's correct.
17 Q And are your individual salesmen paid by commission?
18 A Some are and some aren't.
19 Q Certainly there is nothing improper or inherently
20 fraudulent by paying salespeople by commission?
21 A Of course not.
22 Q Some people have a quota to make in order to keep
23 their job? 24 A No
. 25 Q Now, I think you told us the woman to whom you spoke,
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5635 Skonie-cross/Trabulus
1 whose name you don't recall, told you you had been
2 nominated; is that correct?
3 A That's correct.
4 Q And you say you assumed that it might have been by
5 one of the other -- one of the people with whom you had a
6 business relationship; is that correct?
7 A That's correct.
8 Q That was your assumption; is that correct?
9 A That's correct.
10 Q It is not something she told you; is that correct?
11 A No.
12 Q It is correct, correct? When you said no, it is
13 ambiguous, my question's fault?
14 THE COURT: If you keep going rapidly and he does
15 not catch up to you, the "no" would not fit into the right
16 question.
17 A I asked her who nominated me. She couldn't tell me.
18 THE COURT: She didn't tell you it was a business
19 associate or anything like that?
20 THE WITNESS: No, she did not.
21 Q Mr. Skonie, did she tell you yourself, you yourself
22 upon becoming a member would receive the right, or
23 opportunity to nominate people like yourself? Do you 24 recall that? 25 A I don't recall that.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5636 Skonie-cross/Trabulus
1 Q Do you recall if she told you something to the effect
2 that you would be able to nominate up to two or three
3 people a way through a nomination ballot?
4 A I don't recall that.
5 Q Do you recall whether she told you that if you did
6 something like that it would -- you have to be careful
7 because you couldn't be sure that the person you nominated
8 would actually become a member?
9 A I don't recall that.
10 Q Did she tell you or did you merely assume that if you
11 became a member, the person who nominated you or the
12 people who nominated you would find out?
13 A I assumed that.
14 Q Now, is it also assumed that when you joined the
15 membership, you would learn who the other members were?
16 That was an assumption on your part?
17 A It is an assumption. To me it was a reasonable
18 assumption.
19 Q Certainly, if one purchased the directory -- in the
20 conversation with this lady who spoke to you, did she
21 discuss with you the purchase of the directory?
22 A After I joined.
23 Q Well, at the time that you joined, did you understand 24 that the $290 -- I am sorry, is that what it was, the $290 25 you were paying included the directory?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5637 Skonie-cross/Trabulus
1 A No. Bu
t I never joined anything where I didn't know
2 who the other members were. I mean, as part of the
3 membership.
4 Q You understood the $290 that was due at that point
5 did not include the directory; is that correct?
6 A I didn't know whether it included or didn't include
7 it. I was never told either way.
8 Q Well, do you recall that she told you that there
9 would be an additional charge when the directory was ready
10 to be shipped?
11 A No, I don't recall her saying that. No, she didn't.
12 Q When you received the invoice, 67-B, do you have that
13 before you, sir?
14 A Uh-huh.
15 Q Did you notice the blue portion on it which talked
16 about the additional payment?
17 A No. I didn't notice it.
18 Q Now, in terms of what she described the organization
19 as being, you certainly saw yourself as being a suitable
20 person as being included
in the membership, in terms of
21 where you are in your position with the company and its
22 business?
23 A I wouldn't have joined if I didn't. 24 Q And you perceived it -- withdrawn. 25 Do you know whether or not you were actually
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5638 Skonie-cross/Trabulus
1 included in the directory, did anybody ever tell you that?
2 A No one has ever told me.
3 One of them is Defendant's Exhibit Q. And I am
4 going to direct you to page 820, and I will point to
5 something.
6 Do you see there an entry for yourself?
7 (Handed to the witness.)
8 A Yes, I do.
9 Q And also Defendant's Exhibit P at page 737, also an
10 entry for yourself.
11 Do you see it?
12 A Yes, I do.
13 Q Would you read over those entries and see if they are
14 correct?
15 A This one?
16 Q Either one.
17 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the
18 proceedings.)
19 A It's correct.
20 Q You were spoken to concerning a CD-ROM?
21 A It's correct.
22 Q In your business, I assume you are familiar with
23 CD-ROMs, are you not? 24 A Absolutely. 25 Q And you are aware that a CD-ROM can be utilized to
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5639 Skonie-cross/Trabulus
1 access information on it by any one of a whole different
2 variety of parameters?
3 A That's correct.
4 Q Now, what are the different type of businesses that
5 you would have liked to have networked with had you
6 utilized what was being told to you?
7 A People who manufacture in the electronics and
8 housewares businesses.
9 Q Okay.
10 I will show you my laptop computer which has
11 Defendant
's Exhibit S in it. It has something on the
12 screen. Next to, full text search, it has housewares.
13 There is a number there, number 43.
14 Are you familiar with this type of screen set up?
15 A Uh-huh.
16 Q Yes?
17 A Yes, I am.
18 Q Okay.
19 You see a bunch of names here?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And I will just pick one at random. It says,
22 Melitta, M E L I T T A, U.S.A.
23 A It is Melitta. 24 Q You are familiar with the company? 25 A Sure am.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5640 Skonie-cross/Trabulus
1 Q Is that a company you possibly wanted to network
2 with?
3 A It could be.
4 Q The person listed there is a forecast analysis,
5 analyst for the company; is that correct?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Do you see any there listing you wish for me to pull
8 up?
9 A No.
I think I understand the concept that you are
10 dealing with.
11 Q Okay.
12 Here is one for Rick Burman, B U R M A N,
13 marketing manager of Regent Sheffield, S H E F F I E L D,
14 a manufacturer of cutlery and housewares.
15 Have you heard of that company?
16 A Yes, I have.
17 Q Is that somebody you conceivably would want to
18 network with?
19 A Yes, it is.
20 Q Now, when you decided not to get the CD-ROM or the
21 directory, you did not know whether or not they were
22 houseware companies, or people in the housewares industry
23 listed in them, did you? 24 A I didn't know one way or another. But I don't think 25 that's the point.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5641 Skonie-cross/Trabulus
1 MR. TRABULUS: Move to strike, your Honor.
2 THE COURT: Yes. Motion granted.
3 Strike out t
he answer after I didn't know one way
4 or another.
5 Mr. Skonie, listen to the question. Please try
6 to answer responsively.
7 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
8 THE COURT: Most of the questions call for a yes
9 or no answer.
10 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
11 THE COURT: If you cannot answer yes or no, just
12 say I can't answer yes or no.
13 THE WITNESS: Okay.
14 THE COURT: And if the government thinks any of
15 your answers are incomplete, they will have a chance to
16 ask you later on. Okay?
17 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
18 Q So, it is fair to say that you did not give the
19 directory or the CD-ROM a chance for use in networking; is
20 that correct?
21 A I did not purchase it.
22 Q Now, when you told you were nominated were you told
23 by one person or a committee, or was that detail not 24 supplied? 25 A My recollection is tha
t I was nominated by a person.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5642 Skonie-cross/Trabulus
1 Q That's just your recollection; is that correct?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Are you certain about that?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Before you were told you were just nominated; is that
6 correct?
7 A I was nominated. And I asked who nominated me. And
8 the person said we cannot give the name of the person. It
9 is confidential. So that would indicate to me that it was
10 a person.
11 Q Okay.
12 When you received the -- withdrawn.
13 Any other type of industries besides housewares
14 you might have wanted to network with?
15 A It's possible.
16 Q Now, if you had networked with anybody, the odds of
17 you networking with the person who nominated you would be
18 quite small, would it not?
19 A I don't understand that quest
ion. If someone
20 nominated me, I am assuming I would know them already, and
21 would not necessarily need to network with someone I knew
22 already.
23 Q Exactly, sir. 24 What I am getting at is that the people you were 25 looking to network with were not people you already knew;
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5643 Skonie-cross/Trabulus
1 is that correct?
2 A That's correct.
3 Q And they were not people who could have nominated
4 you; is that correct?
5 A That is correct.
6 Q So, as far as those people were concerned it made no
7 difference whether you were nominated by another
8 individual who was a member, or whether your name came
9 from another source, so long as the group of people,
10 yourself and those people, were suitable for a networking;
11 is that correct?
12 A I can't answer t
hat in a yes or no manner.
13 Q And you did indicate that the prime reason that you
14 yourself became a member was with a view to networking; is
15 that correct?
16 A That was a reason. I didn't say it was the prime
17 reason.
18 MR. TRABULUS: I have no further questions.
19 THE COURT: Anything else?
20 MR. DUNN: Yes, your Honor.
21
22 CROSS-EXAMINATION
23 BY MR. DUNN: 24 Q Good morning, Mr. Skonie. 25 A Good morning.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5644 Skonie-cross/Dunn
1 Q My name is Thomas Dunn, obviously I am up here, so I
2 am one of the attorneys.
3 Mr. Skonie, in your business of sales, you want
4 to contact obviously people who are interested in your
5 product; is that correct?
6 A That's correct.
7 Q And you seem to have the special knowledge of mailing
8
lists; is that correct?
9 A I wouldn't say a special, but I have a knowledge of
10 mailing lists.
11 Q And in your business do you use mailing lists?
12 A Do we use them? No.
13 Q Never?
14 A Never.
15 Q Never have used them?
16 A No.
17 Q How many customers do you have?
18 A The total company, everyone combined, less than 50.
19 Q Less than 50 customers?
20 A Less than 50.
21 Q Do you know that there were 3,948 members of Who's
22 Who Worldwide in Illinois?
23 A No, I did not know that. 24 Q Did you know that -- you are in electronics, correct? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5645 Skonie-cross/Dunn
1 Q There were 1,126 members of Who's Who Worldwide in
2 electronics?
3 A No, I did not know that.
4 Q Did you know that there were over 6,700 members of
5 Who's Who Worldwide who had expertise in sales, did you
6 know that?
7 A I did not know that.
8 Q Your hobbies included fishing; is that correct?
9 A That is correct.
10 Q Did you know that there were 5,760 members of Who's
11 Who Worldwide whose main hobby was fishing?
12 A I did not know that.
13 Q Do you think if you had an opportunity to network
14 with people who were in electronics and who had a hobby of
15 fishing, that you might be able to establish an opening of
16 a door where business discussions may ensue?
17 A It's possible.
18 Q Now, when you joined Who's Who Worldwide, you spoke
19 to a woman; is that correct?
20 A That is correct.
21 Q Did you learn that her name was Marilyn Pierce?
22 A I don't recall her name.
23 Q Would it surprise you to know that Ms. Pierce is not 24 in this courtroom? 25 A No, it wouldn'
t surprise me.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5646 Skonie-cross/Dunn
1 Q You wanted to join this organization, is that
2 correct?
3 A Obviously I wouldn't have joined it if I didn't want
4 to.
5 Q And you said that you didn't do anything with the
6 plaque; is that correct?
7 A That's correct. Eventually I threw the plaque a way.
8 Q Sir, you didn't do anything at all with the plaque
9 when you first got it?
10 A I put it on the side.
11 Q You had been told -- you had joined an organization
12 called Who's Who, correct? And you were told you were
13 going to get a plaque?
14 A Right.
15 Q Is that correct?
16 A That's right.
17 Q And you never did anything with that plaque?
18 A That's correct.
19 Q Is that right?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And when you spoke with the government
, they spoke to
22 you about mailing lists; is that correct? They spoke to
23 you about mailing lists when you spoke to them; is that 24 correct? 25 A The term mailing list came up.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5647 Skonie-cross/Dunn
1 Q It came up when they questioned you; is that correct?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And that came up and also correspondence from the
4 government?
5 A I don't know if I received any correspondence, any
6 written correspondence.
7 Q You had phone conversations with them?
8 A They called me to invite me to come here, yes.
9 Q Did you ever fill out any kind of questionnaire that
10 they sent you?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And as you sit there now, you have no independent
13 recollection as to whether they asked you about mailing
14 lists?
15 A The term "mailing list" came up,
yes.
16 Q Sir, isn't it a fact that when you were advised that
17 you were considered for Who's Who Worldwide that you were
18 pleased by that; isn't that correct?
19 A I wasn't displeased.
20 Q So you were pleased?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And you were pleased that you were going to become
23 part of an organization where you might get some 24 networking benefits; is that correct? 25 A That's correct.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5648 Skonie-cross/Dunn
1 MR. DUNN: I have no further questions.
2 MR. LEE: I have a couple of questions, your
3 Honor.
4
5 CROSS-EXAMINATION
6 BY MR. LEE:
7 Q Good morning, Mr. Skonie.
8 A Good morning.
9 Q My name is Winston Lee, L E E.
10 Q Mr. Skonie, when did you arrive in New York?
11 A I wear hearing aids, would you please speak into the
12 microphone.
13 Q How is this?
14 A A little better.
15 Q Do you hear me now, sir?
16 A Yes, I do.
17 Q When did you arrive in New York in connection with
18 this case?
19 A Last night.
20 Q Prior to coming here today, you had received at least
21 a questionnaire from the Postal Inspection Service about
22 this matter; is that right?
23 A That's correct. 24 Q And then you had some conversations with someone from 25 this table, perhaps Ms. Scott or Mr. White or Inspector
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5649 Skonie-cross/Lee
1 Pagano?
2 A That's correct.
3 Q When did that occur?
4 A I believe I had one telephone conversation with
5 Mr. Pagano, a telephone conversation with Ms. Scott, and I
6 met Ms. Scott this morning.
7 Q Was that the first time you spoke to someone
in
8 person, Ms. Scott this morning?
9 A Yes.
10 Q From the government?
11 A Yes.
12 Q How long was that conversation?
13 A Over breakfast.
14 Q You sat down and had breakfast with her?
15 A Uh-huh.
16 Q Did she have any materials with her, paper, documents
17 to go over with you?
18 A Oh, yes.
19 Q Okay.
20 And that had been -- are you hear by subpoena,
21 sir?
22 A No.
23 Q Did you receive a subpoena? 24 A No. 25 Q Am I correct that that the first time you had an
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5650 Skonie-cross/Lee
1 opportunity to actually take a look at this registry that
2 Mr. Trabulus showed you was today, right?
3 A That's correct.
4 Q And that's the first opportunity of anyone ever
5 giving you to examine the registry; is that correct?
6 A That's correct.
7 Q Ms. Scott did not offer to show it to you, did she?
8 A No.
9 Q Or anyone else?
10 A No.
11 Q Did anyone from the government inform you as to the
12 number of people who are members of the registry, and who
13 they were? Anyone inform you of that?
14 A No.
15 Q So, the first time you had access to that
16 information, the first time somebody provided this
17 knowledge to you was somebody from the defense,
18 Mr. Trabulus, correct?
19 A That's right.
20 Q And the first time you had an opportunity to really
21 know what kind of value that you could get from the CD-ROM
22 was someone from the defense? Mr. Trabulus had to show it
23 to you, right? He showed you the CD-ROM up there; is that 24 correct? 25 A He showed me these books.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
565
1 Skonie-cross/Lee
1 Q Excuse me. And he discussed the CD-ROM with you,
2 right?
3 A He showed me the CD-ROM on the screen.
4 Q And there was an indication from you upon recognizing
5 certain names, at least in the hypothetical that you might
6 be interested in contacting those people? Didn't you say
7 that for networking purposes?
8 A The names were people in our business who may or may
9 not be of help to me in my business.
10 Q In your business?
11 A That's right.
12 Q And was -- were you ever given that opportunity by
13 anyone from the government to review the CD-ROM and kind
14 of just acclimate yourself to what was in it and what you
15 could do with it?
16 A Nobody showed me the CD-ROM.
17 Q Nobody did that either.
18 So, you had a conversation with Ms. Scott, and
19 did she do most -- she definitely -- it would be fair to
20 say that she had the questions in mind that she wanted to
21 clear up with you and speak to you about over breakfast;
22 is that correct -- let me withdraw the question. It
23 wasn't clear. 24 Did it appear to you that she definitely was 25 intent on covering some topics with you when she spoke to
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5652 Skonie-cross/Lee
1 you over breakfast?
2 A She told me what the experience would be like in the
3 courtroom; that I would be shown pieces of paper; I would
4 be asked questions. She had the paper that I had filled
5 out the questionnaire in her possession.
6 Q And she kind of went over it with you, kind of going
7 over points that she felt she wanted to go over with you;
8 is that correct?
9 A I wouldn't say she went over with me. She explained
10 to me the procedure here today.
11 Q She didn't do any of the things or tell you about the
12 things I just asked you about, what Mr. Trabulus asked you
13 about; is that correct?
14 A We did not discuss the CD-ROMs and the book.
15 Q And your expertise is what you told us. Have you
16 ever testified in a court of law, sir?
17 A Yes, I have.
18 Q In connection with what?
19 A I testified some years ago in a Securities and
20 Exchange Commission investigation.
21 Q Was that a criminal action?
22 A I beg your pardon?
23 Q Was it a criminal proceeding? 24 A I don't know. I am not a lawyer. 25 Q Are you aware that this is a criminal proceeding?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5653 Skonie-cross/Lee
1 A Yes.
2 Q And you are a witness in a case, right?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Now, in that case, was there a substantial -- who
5 were you a witness for?
6 A I don't understand what you said.
7 Q Did you testify in that case, the securities case?
8 A Yes, I did.
9 Q All right.
10 And who were you a witness for?
11 MS. SCOTT: Objection.
12 THE COURT: Sustained.
13 Q Now, in that case, were you provided -- were you
14 provided with material to review prior to your testimony
15 in that other case?
16 MS. SCOTT: Objection.
17 THE COURT: Sustain. Desist from that other
18 case.
19 Q Mr. Skonie, did the thought ever occur to you, and
20 you can answer the question yes or no, did the thought
21 ever occur to you that the government was intentionally
22 withholding information from you that would be useful in
23 your testimony here? 24 MS. SCOTT: Objection. 25 THE COURT: Sustained.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5654 Skonie-cross/Lee
1 Q Did the thought ever occur to you that they were only
2 feeding you what they wanted you to know so that you would
3 get the wrong or false exception --
4 A I take exception to that.
5 THE COURT: Excuse me.
6 THE WITNESS: I am sorry.
7 THE COURT: When you see counsel rise to her
8 feet, that's the red flag warning.
9 MS. SCOTT: I withdraw the objection.
10 THE COURT: Pardon me?
11 MS. SCOTT: I withdrew it, your Honor.
12 THE COURT: I will not let him answer that way
13 anyway. Do you want to object?
14 MS. SCOTT: Yes, your Honor.
15 THE COURT: Sustained.
16 When she rises to her feet you will know she is
17 making an objection, or thinking about it seriously, one
18 or the other.
19 THE WITNESS: Yes.
20 THE COURT: When she says "objection", don't
21 answer.
22 THE WITNESS: Yes.
23 Q You answered emphatically, absolutely not, and that 24 thought never occurred to you that they would leave you 25 with the false impression of what this company was? Did
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5655 Skonie-cross/Lee
1 that thought enter your mind?
2 A No.
3 MS. SCOTT: Objection.
4 THE COURT: Strike out the answer. Sustained.
5 Mr. Lee, desist. You covered the ground
6 sufficiently.
7 MR. LEE: No further questions.
8 MR. JENKS: Your Honor, may I ask one or two
9 questions?
10 THE COURT: Absolutely, Mr. Jenks. I wouldn't
11 leave you out.
12 MR. JENKS: Thank you, your Honor.
13
14 CROSS-EXAMINATION
15 BY MR. JENKS:
16 Q Mr. Skonie, the conversation you had with the Who's
17 Who employee was some five years ago; is that correct?
18 A That is correct.
19 Q Did you make any handwritten notes of that
20 conversation?
21 A No, I did not.
22 Q You work about 50 weeks out of the year; is that
23 correct? 24 A Some years more, some years less. 25 Q All right. Let's say 50 on an average.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5656 Skonie-cross/Jenks
1 A Right.
2 Q You have salesmen that work for you?
3 A Yes, I do.
4 Q How many salesmen do you have in that company, Walter
5 Nye and Company?
6 A Six to ten.
7 Q You have telephone conversations everyday with those
8 people?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q Telephone conversation, with the manufacturers?
11 A Yes.
12 Q How many calls do you take a day, 20, 30 calls a day?
13 A I wouldn't say that many, 10 or 12.
14 Q 10 or 12?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And you do other things in your office; i
s that
17 correct?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And as you sit here you are able to recount the
20 conversation that you had in March of 1993, almost
21 verbatim?
22 A I don't believe I said anything verbatim. I gave you
23 general context of the conversation. 24 Q Excuse me. You said in sum and substance what this 25 woman told you; is that correct?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5657 Skonie-cross/Jenks
1 A Yes.
2 Q You remember the magic word that you were nominated;
3 is that correct?
4 A Absolutely.
5 Q Did the government show you anything to suggest that
6 perhaps you were in fact nominated?
7 A No, they did not.
8 Q Did they show you that you were or were not nominated
9 by Sears or Walgreens or one of the manufacturers you deal
10 with?
11 A No.
12 Q Did they show you any
thing or suggest anything that
13 you were nominated by someone in your area in Illinois?
14 A No.
15 Q As you sit here today, can you answer for this jury a
16 hundred percent as to whether you were in fact nominated
17 or not?
18 A I can answer 100 percent that I was told I was
19 nominated.
20 Q You were told. But as you sit here do you know for a
21 fact as to whether or not another member actually
22 nominated you for inclusion in this registry?
23 A I don't know one way or another. 24 Q All right. 25 Let me ask you this: When you received a
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5658 Skonie-cross/Jenks
1 questionnaire from the government, you received a
2 questionnaire sometime around 1995; is that correct?
3 A I don't remember the date that the questionnaire from
4 the government came.
5 Q If
I told you June of 1995, would that refresh your
6 recollection?
7 A I would say it is possible.
8 Q Well, let's take a look at it, okay?
9 I am showing you Government's Exhibit 3500-TRS-1,
10 for Identification.
11 Is there a date on there?
12 A June 26th, 1995.
13 THE COURT: You have to pull the microphone
14 closer. We are having trouble hearing you.
15 THE WITNESS: June 26th, 1995.
16 Q Does that refresh your recollection as to when you
17 received this questionnaire?
18 A Yes.
19 THE COURT: Mr. Skonie, you have to wait until
20 Mr. Jenks concludes the question. I know you are anxious
21 to get back to Naperville, Illinois, but you have to wait
22 until the question is over before you answer.
23 Q Now, when you got this questionnaire, you got a cover 24 letter with the questionnaire, do you recall that? 25 A I don't recall.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5659 Skonie-cross/Jenks
1 Q Do you recall -- withdrawn.
2 When you got this questionnaire, what was your
3 initial reaction to this when you received the
4 questionnaire?
5 A My initial reaction was I filled out the
6 questionnaire and I sent it back.
7 Q Did you believe something was fishy with Who's Who
8 Worldwide or Sterling Who's Who by the content of the
9 questionnaire and the letter you received in the mail from
10 the government?
11 A I believe the government was trying to collect
12 information on this company.
13 Q You believed there was an investigation; is that
14 correct?
15 A Possible.
16 Q When you filled out the questionnaire, is it a fair
17 statement to say that you knew the government was
18 investigating the conduct of these companies; is that
19 correct?
20 A That is correct.
21 Q I mean, you didn't just get the questionnaire and
22 think the government was doing some kind of informational
23 survey, did you? 24 A No. 25 Q And with respect to this invoice that Ms. Scott
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5660 Skonie-cross/Jenks
1 showed you, Government's Exhibit 67-B, I take it you are
2 the president of this company; is that correct?
3 A That is correct.
4 Q And you have a secretary that works for you?
5 A Yes, I do.
6 Q You signed your membership sometime around September
7 of 1993; is that correct?
8 A That's correct.
9 Q And I take it you did receive a copy of this in the
10 mail, right, listing your biographical data?
11 A That's correct.
12 Q You had an opportunity to review it; is that correct?
13 A That is
correct.
14 Q Did you see down here that your membership was going
15 to be split billed, and the final payment of $97 is due in
16 December when the Who's Who Registry is released?
17 A I didn't read that.
18 Q Did you bother to look at it? You spent $297 for a
19 membership, correct?
20 The company didn't scam you, it is here in black
21 and white that in order to get a registry you were going
22 to have to pay another $97; is that right?
23 A I didn't read it. 24 Q Is that the company's fault that you didn't read the 25 document sent to you?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5661 Skonie-cross/Jenks
1 MS. SCOTT: Objection.
2 THE COURT: Sustained.
3 MR. JENKS: I have nothing further, your Honor.
4 THE COURT: Anything else?
5 MR. NEVILLE: A couple, your Honor.
6
7 CROSS-EXAMINATION
8 BY MR. NEVILLE:
9 Q Hi. My name is Jim Neville, and I represent Scott
10 Michaelson.
11 When did you leave your home to come here to
12 testify?
13 A Yesterday afternoon.
14 Q Did you fly here?
15 A Yes.
16 Q The government paid for your ticket?
17 A Yes.
18 Q The government paid for your breakfast?
19 A Yes.
20 Q The government paid for your hotel room?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Let me ask you this, sir: You are a busy man in
23 business, right? 24 A Uh-huh. 25 Q And if you weren't here today you would be sitting in
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5662 Skonie-cross/Neville
1 your office, or you would be doing some work, taking phone
2 calls or speaking to sales reps, things like that?
3 A Right.
4 Q Doing your job?
5 A Correct.
6 Q Earning a living,
right?
7 A That is correct.
8 Q So, how many hours have you been away from your
9 office or away from your job on account of coming here to
10 testify, two days worth, three days worth?
11 A No. About four hours.
12 Q Okay.
13 When are you going to get back to work?
14 A When I leave and get on an airplane, if it is before
15 5:00 I will go back to the office. If it is after 5:00 I
16 will go home.
17 Q So, you will miss at least one day of work?
18 A That's correct.
19 Q Eight hours, ten hours, how many hours a day is for
20 you?
21 A That's correct.
22 Q And after you got this plaque, and you said you were
23 agitated or disappointed with it, you didn't pick up the 24 phone and call and ask for a refund? 25 A I didn't say I was agitated or disappointed with the
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5663 Skonie-cross/Neville
1 plaque. I said I was agitated with the process, and I did
2 not use the plaque.
3 Q But you have taken a whole day off from work at least
4 one full day; is that correct?
5 A That's correct.
6 Q And you have come to New York to testify so lawyers
7 could ask you questions?
8 A That's correct.
9 Q And you are missing opportunities on the job?
10 A That's correct.
11 Q And you didn't pick up the phone and ask for a
12 refund?
13 A I don't see how that is related.
14 Q Well, you are wasting a whole day from your job to
15 come here and testify?
16 A I don't consider doing the obligation of a citizen a
17 waste of time.
18 Q Do you feel now as you testified that you are doing
19 some duty as a citizen?
20 A I think the legal process depends on citizens to
21 testify if they are asked to t
estify, absolutely.
22 Q And you are here merely because you are doing a job
23 as a citizen, doing your duty as a citizen, and doing 24 something for the government? 25 A I was asked to testify, and I came to testify.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5664 Skonie-cross/Neville
1 Q So, if you had not been asked to testify you would
2 never have volunteered to testify; is that right?
3 A Of course not. I wouldn't have known that this
4 existed had I not been asked.
5 Q Did you ever make any complaints to any better
6 business bureau or anything like that on this?
7 A On testifying? I wouldn't complain to the Better
8 Business Bureau about testifying.
9 Q No. It is not what I meant, sir. About this
10 registry and this company and this experience you had?
11 A I complained to the representative of the company.
12
Q That was not my question.
13 Did you complain to a Better Business Bureau?
14 A No.
15 Q You didn't call to get your money back?
16 A No.
17 Q You wouldn't be here unless the government asked you
18 to come?
19 A Obviously someone asked me to come. That's why I am
20 here. If no one asked me I wouldn't be here because I
21 wouldn't know it was going on.
22 Q Right. If the government hadn't sent you the
23 questionnaire, you wouldn't have known anything is going 24 on with this case, right? 25 A I guess so, yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5665 Skonie-cross/Neville
1 Q Have you ever heard of Marquis Who's Who?
2 A No.
3 Q Have you ever heard of any Who's Who publications?
4 A Sterling Who's Who and I heard of Who's Who
5 Worldwide.
6 Q You never heard of any other kind of Who's
Whos?
7 A Who's Who is a kind of general term, I have learned
8 afterwards that there is more than one Who's Who.
9 Q Would it surprise you to know that there is a Who's
10 Who called Marquis Who's Who, that is owned by a Dutch
11 conglomerate, a Dutch corporation?
12 A No, it wouldn't surprise me.
13 Q Would it surprise you to know that Marquis Who's Who
14 sued this company for trademark infringement?
15 MS. SCOTT: Objection.
16 THE COURT: Sustained.
17 Q Would it surprise you to learn that Marquis Who's Who
18 also uses mailing lists to attract people?
19 MS. SCOTT: Objection.
20 THE COURT: Sustained.
21 MR. NEVILLE: No further questions.
22 MR. NELSON: May I ask questions?
23 THE COURT: Surely. 24 25
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5666 Skonie-cross/Nelson
1 CROSS-EXAMIN
ATION
2 BY MR. NELSON:
3 Q Good morning, Mr. Skonie.
4 A Good morning.
5 Q My name is Alan Nelson.
6 I believe you testified when Mr. Dunn, the tall
7 gentleman, asked you some questions, that when you
8 received the wall plaque you really didn't look at it and
9 sort of put it on the side; is that right?
10 A I obviously looked at it. But I didn't use it. I
11 put it on the side.
12 Q Not because there was anything wrong with the wall
13 plaque, you just weren't particularly interested in the
14 plaque, because the reason why you joined Who's Who
15 Worldwide was because you wanted the membership, which was
16 the key to your joining; is that correct?
17 A It seems correct, yes.
18 Q And I believe you testified on direct examination
19 when questioned by Ms. Scott, that you are largely in the
20 business of contacts, and you needed to netwo
rk; is that
21 correct?
22 A That's correct.
23 Q And the reason why you saw Who's Who Worldwide as 24 being an effective or appropriate organization to join was 25 the possibilities for business contacts that membership in
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5667 Skonie-cross/Nelson
1 the organization would offer; is that right?
2 A That is correct.
3 Q Now, I believe you testified -- and I was writing
4 down some of the notes based on what you testified to --
5 that when you received the invoice for the registry, you
6 decided not to pay the additional sum of money because you
7 were agitated because you assumed you would have known by
8 that point who the other members were; do you recall
9 having given that testimony?
10 A No. I said I didn't read that portion of the
11 invoice, and I became agitated when the
person called me
12 on the phone to sell me the directory.
13 Q Okay.
14 You see now that the invoice does indicate that
15 the -- this is the invoice that you would have received
16 within a month after you joined Who's Who Worldwide, that
17 in order to acquire the registry, you would have to pay an
18 additional sum of $97; is that right?
19 A It says that.
20 Q And the reason why you would have joined Who's Who
21 Worldwide was a business decision; it was for purposes of
22 expanding your business and earning more money; is that
23 correct? 24 A And because I had been nominated by someone and 25 hopefully did not wish to offend, possibly offend someone
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5668 Skonie-cross/Nelson
1 who nominated me.
2 Q And likewise that would have been a business decision
3 on your pa
rt, that you didn't want to offend a former
4 customer of yours, or a present customer of yours, who you
5 felt might have nominated you; is that correct?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And the reason you might have purchased membership
8 for the networking reasons would have been to necessarily
9 acquire new business; is that right?
10 A That's a true statement, yes.
11 Q And by not paying the additional fee of $97, you
12 never acquired the registry; is that right?
13 A That's correct.
14 Q And you never acquired the CD-ROM; is that right?
15 A That is correct.
16 Q And you never had the opportunity to utilize the
17 CD-ROM as Mr. Trabulus was demonstrating to you, to
18 attempt to acquire the names of people who could
19 potentially be individuals whom you could network within
20 acquire new business; is that right? Just yes or no,
21 sir? Yes or no.
22 A
I never -- I never acquired the books.
23 Q Okay. 24 So, as a result of your annoyance over the fact 25 that there was an additional $97 fee due in an invoice you
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5669 Skonie-cross/Nelson
1 received within a month of your joining, you never gave
2 Who's Who Worldwide the opportunity to demonstrate to you
3 its networking abilities that could have made your
4 business a better, stronger and more possible -- more
5 powerful -- more profitable business; is that right, sir?
6 A I can't answer that with a yes or no.
7 Q $97 would have been a fairly cheap price to gain some
8 fairly large customers, would you agree?
9 A That's your assumption, and not mine.
10 MR. NELSON: Thank you. I have no further
11 questions.
12
13 CROSS-EXAMINATION
14 BY MR. SCHOER:
15 Q Mr. Sk
onie, good morning.
16 A Good morning.
17 Q Other than the invoice you received, did you receive
18 any other mailings from Who's Who?
19 A Just the one to Mr. Nye.
20 Q That was not from Who's Who Worldwide, was it?
21 A From Sterling Who's Who.
22 Q It wasn't from Who's Who Worldwide, was it?
23 A That's right. 24 Q Did you receive any other mailings from Who's Who 25 Worldwide?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5670 Skonie-cross/Schoer
1 A Not that I can recall.
2 Q Did you receive a membership package in any way that
3 told you the benefits?
4 A I received the plaque and some other items, but I
5 don't remember what the other items were.
6 Q Did you receive any magazines?
7 A Not that I recall.
8 Q I will show you what is marked as AB in evidence, AE
9 in evidence.
10 Do y
ou remember receiving a welcoming letter, and
11 a little brochure with respect to benefits?
12 (Handed to the witness.)
13 A I don't remember.
14 Q You might have received those, right?
15 A It's possible.
16 Q I will show you what is marked as
17 Defendant's Exhibit H, Gordon-H.
18 (Handed to the witness.)
19 Q That's a magazine. Do you remember receiving that?
20 A I don't remember receiving this.
21 Q Looking at that magazine, is it fair to say that you
22 were interested in housewares and electronics, those are
23 two separate areas; is that my understanding? 24 A That's correct. 25 Q And would a person like the retired chairman and CEO
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5671 Skonie-cross/Schoer
1 of Emerson Electric be someone you might be interested in
2 talking to in networking?
3 A Yes.
4 Q In electronics?
5 How about the president and CEO of GE Appliances?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Is that someone you would be interested in?
8 A Yes.
9 Q How about the president of Norsk, N O R S K?
10 A I don't know them.
11 Q They make housewares, from Norway, I believe. It is
12 a Norwegian company making housewares.
13 A Yes.
14 Q Would you be interested in someone like that?
15 A Absolutely.
16 Q Did you know that all those people were profiled in
17 this magazine as being members of Who's Who Worldwide?
18 A They are profiled in there?
19 Q Now, you filled out a questionnaire; is that correct?
20 A That is correct.
21 Q And in the questionnaire you were asked this
22 question, question number 25:
23 What were the primary reasons for your decision 24 to purchase a directory or become a member? 25 Your answer to that was,
seemed to present a
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5672 Skonie-cross/Schoer
1 business opportunity.
2 Do you remember being asked that question and
3 giving that answer?
4 A Yes.
5 Q You didn't say anything in there as a nomination
6 being a reason or a primary reason even for being --
7 withdrawn.
8 You didn't say anything in your answer that
9 nomination was one of the primary reasons for purchasing
10 this membership, did you?
11 A It was one of the primary reasons. But I didn't say
12 it in that particular specific case.
13 Q All right.
14 You were given the opportunity in June of 1995,
15 to write out the primary reasons; is that fair to say, in
16 this questionnaire?
17 A I filled out a questionnaire in June of 1995, yes.
18 Q And you were given an opportunity to set forth the
19 primary reasons, plural, for your decision to purchase a
20 membership; isn't that right?
21 A I filled out that questionnaire, yes, that's correct.
22 Q And you were given that -- you were given in that
23 questionnaire the opportunity to fill out and set forth 24 the primary reasons, plural, for your purchasing the 25 membership; is that right?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5673 Skonie-cross/Schoer
1 A I was given that opportunity.
2 Q And you took that opportunity by putting an answer to
3 that question; isn't that so?
4 A I put that answer down that is on that sheet, yes.
5 Q And you didn't say anything in that answer about
6 nominations, right?
7 A Not in that sheet, I did not.
8 Q You talked about the salespeople you have employed by
9 you; is that right?
10 A That is correct.
11 Q You sa
id none of them have quotas?
12 A That's correct.
13 Q Are those people on straight -- are your salespeople
14 on straight commissions?
15 A Some are and some are not.
16 Q If the salespeople that are on -- that are not on
17 straight commissions, if they didn't make any sales, would
18 you continue to employ them?
19 A It depends on what the circumstances were.
20 Q If the salespeople were not on commission that you
21 were paying a salary to, made no sales at all, would you
22 continue to employ them?
23 A It depends on the conditions I had given them. It is 24 possible -- 25 Q You would give them a production quota, they would
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5674 Skonie-cross/Schoer
1 have to go out and make sales?
2 A I already told you I didn't give quotas.
3 Q You are telling us you would contin
ue to employ
4 someone, pay a salary to them if they were totally
5 unproductive?
6 A I didn't say that.
7 Q If they made no sales?
8 A It is possible.
9 MR. SCHOER: I have nothing further.
10 THE COURT: Anything else?
11 Any redirect?
12 MS. SCOTT: Yes, there is, your Honor. May I
13 have a moment?
14 THE COURT: Yes.
15 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the
16 proceedings.)
17
18 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
19 BY MS. SCOTT:
20 Q Mr. Skonie, on cross-examination you were shown the
21 CD-ROM; is that correct?
22 A That's correct.
23 Q You were asked a number of questions about a magazine 24 that Who's Who Worldwide published. 25 A Right.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5675 Skonie-redirect/Scott
1 Q Now, through these questions, particularly th
e
2 questions about the CD-ROM, you were given some names of
3 individuals in your industry; is that right?
4 A That is correct.
5 Q And you were asked if you would want to network with
6 those people; is that correct?
7 A That is correct.
8 Q You answered in some cases you might be interested in
9 networking with those people; is that correct?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And at one point, you said that that is not the
12 point; do you remember saying that?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Can you tell us what you meant by that?
15 MR. TRABULUS: Objection, your Honor. That was a
16 motion to --
17 THE COURT: Objection without statement, please.
18 MR. TRABULUS: Yes.
19 THE COURT: Overruled.
20 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, may we approach?
21 THE COURT: No. Overruled.
22 A The point is these names, I can get these names for
23 free from any number o
f sources. I can get them from show 24 listings from trade shows. I can get them from trade 25 directories, I can get them from the phone book. I can
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5676 Skonie-redirect/Scott
1 look up General Electric in the phone book and call them
2 up and say any want to talk to the chairman of the board
3 of General Electric.
4 My possibility of talking to them if I got it out
5 of the phone book or out of these books is nil. I mean, I
6 get the names of all these people in any number of ways
7 for free without joining a group or an association.
8 I can go on the Internet and get those names for
9 free. I can go on the Internet and get a listing of
10 companies and their CEOs and marketing people, in any
11 number of ways for a fraction of what this cost.
12 Q So, would you be willing to pay $290 for a lis
t of
13 the names?
14 A Absolutely not.
15 Q Now, in addition when you were asked about a CD-ROM,
16 and about the directory, you were also asked about whether
17 in fact you had given the company a chance when you
18 declined to purchase these items; do you recall that
19 question?
20 A Yes, sir.
21 Q Were you willing to pay an additional $100 for those
22 items?
23 A Not for a list of names, no. 24 Q You were also asked questions about what the 25 government spoke to you about in the discussions before
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5677 Skonie-redirect/Scott
1 today?
2 A That's correct.
3 Q Do you remember being asked if the government had
4 mentioned mailing lists to you?
5 A We talked about the fact --
6 THE COURT: No. The question is were you asked?
7 Were you asked t
hat question in cross-examination.
8 THE WITNESS: Repeat the question, please.
9 Q In cross-examination today you were asked questions
10 by defense counsel about whether the government had spoken
11 to you about mailing lists. Do you remember those
12 questions today?
13 A I remember that question.
14 Q Now, when your company received a letter for
15 Mr. Nye -- withdrawn.
16 When your company received a letter for Mr. Nye,
17 you were surprised by that; is that correct?
18 MR. JENKS: Objection.
19 Q When your company received a letter for Mr. Nye,
20 Mr. Nye was at that time dead; is that correct?
21 A That's correct.
22 Q How long had he been dead?
23 A Mr. Nye -- I am trying to jog my memory. I have a 16 24 year old son. And Mr. Nye died the year he was born. So 25 Mr. Nye died approximately 1981.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFF
ICIAL COURT REPORTER
5678 Skonie-redirect/Scott
1 Q Now, when you received, and saw that letter to
2 Mr. Nye, where did you suspect that the company obtained
3 that name?
4 MR. JENKS: Objection.
5 THE COURT: Sustained. Desist from Mr. Nye.
6 Q Now, do you remember being asked questions from
7 defense counsel about how many people you talked to each
8 day in connection with your business?
9 A That's correct, yes.
10 Q Do you remember you said you talk to a large number
11 of people?
12 A Some days yes. Some days more. I make a lot of
13 phone calls, a reasonable number of phone calls.
14 Q Do you remember being asked whether, nevertheless,
15 you could remember a conversation that took place five
16 years ago from Who's Who Worldwide?
17 A That's correct.
18 Q How is it that you are able to remember that
19 conversation?
20 A Because I was irritated to the point that I didn't
21 forget. Some things you remember. Some things kind of
22 float off into never-never.
23 If something happens from a person that impacts 24 you, you remember. If you run your car into a wall you 25 remember. If you become very agitated over a business
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5679 Skonie-redirect/Scott
1 situation you tend to remember those things. And I
2 remember that conversation. It just didn't flow into the
3 rest of the day. It stood out a lot.
4 Q Now, you were asked if you were agitated.
5 Withdrawn.
6 You were asked questions about when your
7 irritation with the company began, do you recall those
8 questions?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Can you tell us what caused your initial irritation
11 with the company?
12 A When I first got it
I asked about how I had been
13 selected, about how things were done. As I got kind of
14 into the process and got asked for the book, it struck me
15 as being less of an opportunity to -- it didn't flow the
16 way a normal association with which you join flows. You
17 join something. Generally you get a membership, or you
18 find out other people who are in it, or what the
19 organizationally purposes are, whatever. But it went from
20 one paying of money, and the next issue was again money.
21 MR. LEE: Objection, your Honor.
22 A And that irritated me.
23 THE COURT: You are objecting on what ground? 24 MR. LEE: After "normally" I don't think it is 25 responsive.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5680 Skonie-redirect/Scott
1 THE COURT: Yes. I will strike the entire answer
2 and tell the jury to please disregard it.
3 Q Now, you remember Mr. Jenks showed you the
4 questionnaire you filled out in 1995?
5 A That's right.
6 Q Do you remember Mr. Jenks asking you whether this
7 questionnaire gave you the impression that there was
8 something fishy about the company?
9 A That's correct.
10 Q When did you first get the impression that there was
11 something fishy about the company?
12 A When I refused to pay for the directory, and asked
13 again who had nominated me.
14 Q And was that before you received the government's
15 questionnaire?
16 A Yes, it is.
17 Q Do you remember Mr. Jenks showed you the invoice?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Government's Exhibit 67-B?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Do you remember he showed you the language in the
22 blue box that mentioned the split billing?
23 A Yes. 24 Q In your telephone conversation with the salespersons
2
5 who initially sold you the membership, did that person
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5681 Skonie-redirect/Scott
1 ever mention to you that you would be expected to pay more
2 than $290 in connection with this membership?
3 A No.
4 Q And the invoice that you had seen today with the blue
5 box, did you have that invoice at the time that you made
6 the purchase, that you made the decision to make the
7 purchase?
8 A No.
9 Q That invoice came after you made the purchase; is
10 that correct?
11 A That's correct.
12 Q Now, you were also asked questions about some answers
13 you gave on your questionnaire; do you recall those
14 questions?
15 A Right.
16 Q In particular you were asked about your answer to
17 question 25, which asked for your primary reason for
18 purchasing the membership; do yo
u remember that?
19 A Right.
20 MR. SCHOER: Objection. Question 25 -- I am
21 sorry, Judge.
22 THE COURT: Let me hear the question, please,
23 Mr. Reporter. 24 (Whereupon, the court reporter reads the 25 requested material.)
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5682 Skonie-redirect/Scott
1 THE COURT: You are objecting to that?
2 MR. SCHOER: Objection to the question, Judge.
3 THE COURT: Why?
4 MR. SCHOER: Because question 25 asks for the
5 primary reasons, in plural, and not the primary reason as
6 formulated by Ms. Scott.
7 THE COURT: Do you amend your question?
8 MS. SCOTT: I amend my questions, yes.
9 THE COURT: Does that satisfy your objection?
10 MR. SCHOER: Yes, sir.
11 THE COURT: Okay.
12 This is like diplomatic, before they decided not
13 to bomb Iraq, diplomatic negotiat
ions going on, you see.
14 Go ahead.
15 Q Do you remember being asked whether this question
16 gave you an opportunity to present the primary reasons why
17 you purchased your membership?
18 A I am becoming confused here? I really am.
19 Q I will rephrase it.
20 Do you remember defense counsel asking you
21 whether this question gave you an opportunity to set forth
22 the primary reasons why you purchased the membership?
23 A I guess it gave me the opportunity. Yes, he asked 24 that, yes. 25 Q Do you remember him also asking you whether you had
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5683 Skonie-redirect/Scott
1 mentioned nomination in your answer to that question?
2 A He asked me that.
3 Q I will show you questionnaire and ask you to look in
4 particular at questions number 15 and 26.
5 (Handed to the witnes
s.)
6 A Okay.
7 Q Did those questions give you the opportunity to set
8 forth the reasons, primary reasons why you purchased the
9 membership?
10 A Yes, it did.
11 MR. SCHOER: Objection.
12 THE COURT: Overruled.
13 Q Your answer is?
14 A I can read it.
15 Q The answer.
16 A Yes, it did. It says --
17 THE COURT: The question is: Did it provide you
18 with another opportunity to set forth some reasons?
19 THE WITNESS: Thank you. Yes, it did.
20 Q And having looked at that questionnaire does it
21 refresh your recollection about other reasons you gave for
22 purchasing the membership when you filled out the
23 questionnaire? 24 A Yes, it does. 25 Q Can you tell us in substance what those answers were,
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5684 Skonie-redirect/Scott
1 without
reading?
2 MR. SCHOER: Objection.
3 THE COURT: Overruled.
4 A It says that I was nominated, and that my answer was
5 that I responded that that was one of the reasons why I
6 was nominated. And that's one of the reasons why I
7 joined.
8 MS. SCOTT: May I have a moment, your Honor?
9 THE COURT: Yes.
10 (Ms. Scott confers with Mr. White.)
11 Q Mr. Skonie, do you remember testifying on
12 cross-examination that you were not certain as to whether
13 or not you were in fact nominated? Do you remember saying
14 that?
15 A No, I --
16 THE COURT: Were you asked a question, as you sit
17 here now, do you know whether you were nominated? Were
18 you asked that question?
19 THE WITNESS: I don't know whether I was
20 nominated or not.
21 THE COURT: You don't know?
22 THE WITNESS: No.
23 THE COURT: You were asked that question
and 24 that's how you answered it. 25 THE WITNESS: I am becoming a little confused
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5685 Skonie-redirect/Scott
1 with the questions.
2 THE COURT: Understandably so. Sometimes I am,
3 too. Don't worry about it.
4 Q Mr. Skonie, would you take a look, please, at
5 Government's Exhibit 210, which is in evidence.
6 A Okay.
7 (Handed to the witness.)
8 A Right.
9 Q Now, is that a solicitation letter from Who's Who
10 Worldwide?
11 A Yes, it is.
12 Q Is it similar in substance to the solicitation letter
13 you received in 1993?
14 A I honestly can't say to the specifics.
15 MR. JENKS: Objection, your Honor.
16 THE COURT: Yes, sustained.
17 Q Okay.
18 Mr. Skonie, if you take a look at the top of that
19 letter, do you see some handwriting at
the top?
20 MR. JENKS: Objection.
21 THE COURT: Sustained.
22 MS. SCOTT: Your Honor, it is in evidence.
23 THE COURT: Let me see the letter. 24 (Handed to the Court.) 25 THE COURT: Sustained.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5686 Skonie-redirect/Scott
1 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, can we approach on that
2 issue?
3 THE COURT: No.
4 Next question.
5 Q Mr. Skonie, if you can look at the card in front of
6 you, Government Exhibit 67-D?
7 A This one?
8 Q Yes.
9 Can you tell us the code appearing on the bottom
10 left-hand corner?
11 MR. TRABULUS: Objection.
12 THE COURT: Overruled. I am interested, let's
13 hear.
14 MR. TRABULUS: You heard it already.
15 THE WITNESS: It says GA group FM.
16 THE COURT: No. I am interested how it relates
17 to the question as
to whether he is nominated or not.
18 That one I want to hear.
19 You don't know whether you were ever nominated,
20 right? As you sit here today, you don't know that, do
21 you?
22 THE WITNESS: I was told that I was nominated.
23 But I don't know the fact that I was. 24 THE COURT: You don't know one way or the other. 25 MS. SCOTT: Your Honor, this relates to that
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5687 Skonie-redirect/Scott
1 issue. That's why we are asking the questions. The codes
2 that appear --
3 MR. LEE: Objection.
4 MR. JENKS: Objection, your Honor.
5 THE COURT: Sustained.
6 Any other questions?
7 MS. SCOTT: Your Honor, may I publish the letter
8 that your Honor has before you, Government's Exhibit --
9 THE COURT: It is in evidence?
10 MS. SCOTT: Yes.
11 THE COURT: You can publis
h anything in
12 evidence.
13 MS. SCOTT: I would ask permission to publish it,
14 Government's Exhibit 67-D, and Government's Exhibit 210.
15 THE COURT: Yes.
16 You thought I would say no to everything?
17 MR. WHITE: Thank you, no further questions.
18 (Whereupon, the exhibit/exhibits were published
19 to the jury.)
20
21 RECROSS-EXAMINATION
22 BY MR. TRABULUS:
23 Q Mr. Skonie, I think you were shown that letter that 24 is being circulated around now, and you can't say whether 25 it is the letter you got; is that right?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5688 Skonie-recross/Trabulus
1 A I can't say that.
2 Q Now, Mr. Skonie, you were asked about some questions
3 on your questionnaire. Do you have the questionnaire with
4 you?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And you were asked by Ms. Scott with re
spect to
7 questions 15 and 26; is that right?
8 A Yes.
9 Q You indicated in your answer you said something about
10 being nominated, right?
11 Looking at the answers there, do you see the word
12 "nominated" at all?
13 A Do I see the word, no.
14 Q I think you said that what you were told about how
15 the company obtained your name affected you and made you
16 want to partake, something like that; is that right?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And you also said an important statement or
19 representation --
20 THE COURT: You have to go slower, Mr. Trabulus.
21 I can't keep up with you. I guess it's me.
22 MR. TRABULUS: No, it is me.
23 THE COURT: Okay. 24 Q You also said that the most important statements or 25 representations made by the company where that was a --
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5689 S
konie-recross/Trabulus
1 were that it was a very selective membership, right? Look
2 at number 25 -- 26.
3 A The most important -- that's an answer I put down,
4 very selective membership.
5 Q Now, being very selective has nothing to do with
6 whether or not you were nominated by a particular
7 individual or other member; is that correct? It can still
8 be selective, right?
9 A That is correct.
10 Q Now, you also indicated in this questionnaire that
11 you had received all the items that you expected and
12 within the time frame promised. Take a look at question
13 28. Is that right?
14 A That's right.
15 Q And so, when you purchased the membership, you
16 weren't expecting to receive the directory; is that
17 correct?
18 A That's correct.
19 Q And it was only afterward that you made the decision
20 not to purchase the director
y; is that correct?
21 A That's correct.
22 Q Now, you told Ms. Scott you could get the names in
23 the directory anywhere? 24 A I didn't say any place. I said I could get them out 25 of trade directories, off the Internet, and in some cases
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5690 Skonie-recross/Trabulus
1 out of phone book.
2 Q You could have contacted those people from those
3 sources; is that correct?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And that would be for free?
6 A Yes.
7 Q If you got it out of those sources and you contacted
8 them, you would not be truthfully be able to say, I am a
9 member of Who's Who Worldwide like you; is that right?
10 A That is correct.
11 Q And when you joined Who's Who Worldwide you were told
12 there was a directory; is that right?
13 A When I joined?
14 Q In the initial tele
phone call, you were told that
15 there was an organization and that through it you would be
16 able to network; is that right?
17 A That's correct.
18 Q And were you told that there was a directory, or some
19 kind of listing of the names that were available?
20 A I don't recall being told that.
21 Q So, you understood, did you not, that the networking
22 would come to you through a bunch of names, and you would
23 be able to get it at some point; is that correct? 24 A Obviously, yes. 25 Q And did you have any reason to believe that those
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5691 Skonie-recross/Trabulus
1 names were names that you would not be able to find in a
2 trade directory or in a phone book, or over the Internet,
3 or any of the sources that you now told us would be a
4 source for the names?
5 A Could you r
epeat that?
6 Q Sure.
7 When you understood that you would be getting a
8 bunch of names --
9 A Slower, please.
10 Q Sure.
11 When you were told or came to understand that you
12 would be able to get some names of other members, did you
13 think that those were people whose names could not be
14 found in a trade directory?
15 A I can't answer that yes or no.
16 Q Well, when you made the decision not to purchase the
17 directory --
18 A Right.
19 Q -- you had not learned anything more about what was
20 in the directory or the kinds of listing in the directory,
21 or what kind of people were there, or their names, than
22 you had when you decided to purchase a membership; is that
23 correct? 24 A When I purchased a directory, I had not -- I had 25 decided not to purchase it. I had not seen it.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, C
P, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5692 Skonie-recross/Trabulus
1 Q Let me go back.
2 Between the time when you became a member --
3 A Right.
4 Q -- and the time you decided not to purchase the
5 directory --
6 A Right.
7 Q -- you hadn't learned anything more than you had
8 originally been told about the names of the members in the
9 membership; is that correct?
10 A I think that's correct.
11 Q You didn't learn for the first time between those two
12 times, that those names were names you could get from a
13 trade directory, did you?
14 A No.
15 Q You didn't learn for the first time that those names
16 were names that might have been found in some instances in
17 a telephone book, did you?
18 A No.
19 Q So, really, between the time -- one other thing.
20 As you sit there today you seem to have some
21 doubt
as to whether or not you were nominated; is that
22 correct?
23 A I don't understand the question. 24 Q I think you have been asked that you don't know -- 25 A I was told I was nominated. That's all I can say.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5693 Skonie-recross/Trabulus
1 Q And between the time that you received -- that you
2 were told that in that initial telephone conversation, and
3 the time you decided not to purchase the directory, had
4 you learned anything new besides what you had originally
5 been told that led you to question that?
6 A No.
7 Q So, your decision not to purchase the directory had
8 nothing to do with whether you had been nominated or not;
9 is that correct?
10 A That's not correct.
11 Q Well, originally you were told that you had been
12 nominated, right?
13 A Yes.
14
Q And then there came a point in time -- withdrawn.
15 When you were told that, in that telephone
16 conversation, you didn't question it, did you?
17 A Yes, I did. I asked who nominated me.
18 Q What I meant was: Did you question -- did you doubt
19 in your mind that you had been nominated?
20 A Did I doubt? No.
21 Q So your decision, you then -- you then purchased the
22 membership; is that correct?
23 A That is correct. 24 Q And then there came a time that you were told if you 25 wanted to purchase the directory, you would have to pay
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5694 Skonie-recross/Trabulus
1 $97; is that right?
2 A That's right.
3 Q Now, between that time when you were told that you
4 were nominated and you decided not to pay the $97, were
5 you given any further reason to question whether or not
6 you had been nominated?
7 A I didn't talk to anybody in that space of time or
8 have any contact in that space of time.
9 Q So, your decision not to purchase a directory was
10 made on exactly the same information on which you had
11 decided to become a member; is that correct?
12 A I am again becoming confused.
13 Q Let me try it again.
14 When you decided not to purchase the directory,
15 you had not learned anything new about Who's Who
16 Worldwide?
17 A I had a conversation with the representative of Who's
18 Who who called me back. And at that time I said -- we got
19 into the nomination thing again. They said it was
20 confidential.
21 And I said, I don't want to purchase the
22 directory because this is not turning out the way I wanted
23 it to. And then I made the decision not to purchase the 24 directory. 25 Q You were told in
the first conversation it was
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5695 Skonie-recross/Trabulus
1 confidential?
2 A Yes.
3 Q You were not told it is confidential now and
4 somewhere down the line we will tell you; is that right?
5 A No. I was told it was confidential. But I was never
6 told somewhere down the line I will be told.
7 Q When you were told in the second conversation it was
8 confidential, you were being told exactly the same thing
9 as you were being told originally; is that right?
10 A That's right.
11 Q So, nothing had changed, except now you didn't want
12 to purchase the directory; is that correct?
13 A I told the representative that I did not want to
14 purchase the directory.
15 Q Now, when you originally became a member, and you
16 were thinking about networking, and it occurred to you as
17 a value in networking, to be able to tell someone else
18 whom you wanted to do business with, look, I have
19 something in common with you, I am a member of Who's Who
20 Worldwide just like you; is that correct?
21 A It was not my thought process.
22 Q You might not have said it exactly that way, but it
23 certainly would have been someone who is a member of the 24 same organization, and that may provide the basis for an 25 introduction or an initial contact; is that correct?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5696 Skonie-recross/Trabulus
1 A Repeat that, please.
2 Q Well, did it occur to you when you joined --
3 A Yes.
4 Q -- that it might be a source of contacts, that you
5 could contact somebody saying that we are in similar lines
6 of business, we might do business together, and, by the
7 way, like you, I am a
member of Who's Who Worldwide?
8 A I can't say that that was my thought process, no.
9 Q Well, did you think that it would help you in gaining
10 an entree with someone else that you both would be members
11 of Who's Who Worldwide?
12 A I can't answer that with a yes or no.
13 Q Well, I will let you explain that one.
14 A I thought I would be put into contact with other
15 people, as you normally are in some sort of an
16 association, and that, you know, I would build those
17 contracts.
18 For example, I belong to the Housewares Club of
19 Chicago, the largest housewares club in Chicago. But I
20 don't go up to people saying you are in the housewares
21 club, too. I am put in contact with those people. They
22 are around me. There is an assumption if you are there
23 and you are in contact with people in those context, it is 24 an opportunity. 25 Q
Mr. Skonie, the Housewares Club in Chicago is
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5697 Skonie-recross/Trabulus
1 specifically for people in the same general business; is
2 that correct?
3 A No. Anybody can join.
4 Q Well, would a doctor join it?
5 A It's possible. I don't know if we have any doctor
6 members, but he wouldn't be precluded from joining it.
7 Q Isn't the purpose for the people in the housewares
8 business to have a common organization?
9 A It is a charitable purpose actually.
10 Q Okay, but at the same time the people generally in it
11 are in the housewares business, that's how they got their
12 name; is that correct?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And those are the people who would each tend to want
15 to network with each other; is that right?
16 A Yes, sir.
17 Q When you joined Who's Who Worldwide you
didn't think
18 it was just consisting of people who were in the same
19 industry or business that you were in, did you?
20 A No.
21 Q You understood it was all kind of businesses; is that
22 right?
23 A That's right. 24 Q So, in terms of -- you didn't -- in terms of 25 networking, did you not understand that it would be up to
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5698 Skonie-recross/Trabulus
1 you to seek out those members who had something in common
2 with you and attempt to network with them, just as they
3 might do it with you?
4 A I can't answer that with a yes or no.
5 Q Well, did it occur to you that you might have to do
6 something yourself in terms of contacting members in terms
7 of networking?
8 A What do you mean by that when you say "contacting?"
9 Q Were you expecting after joining Who's Who W
orldwide
10 to just sit back and wait for other members to call you
11 and get business that way?
12 A No. I expected that there would be functions, or the
13 opportunity to meet people.
14 Q And you never found out whether or not that was so
15 because you decided not to proceed once you got the bill
16 for the directory; is that correct?
17 A I really wasn't interested in contacting people out
18 of a directory, no.
19 Q Your business is located in Arlington Heights?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And do you know if there are not business people who
22 are members of Who's Who Worldwide who are in Arlington
23 Heights? 24 A No. 25 Q Do you know a Mr. Ganofski, G A N O F S K I?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5699 Skonie-recross/Trabulus
1 THE COURT: Mr. Trabulus, it is improper
2 recross-examination. I wil
l not allow it. You could have
3 brought that in before. You did not. It was not raised
4 on redirect, and I am precluding it.
5 MR. TRABULUS: I thought it had to do with the
6 question asked on cross-examination -- on redirect --
7 THE COURT: What question?
8 MR. TRABULUS: The question asked by Ms. Scott as
9 to nomination.
10 THE COURT: You are trying to show that he was
11 perhaps nominated by one of those people?
12 MR. TRABULUS: One of them.
13 THE COURT: Go ahead. I thought you were trying
14 to as you certainly could, to show that there were people
15 in the industry that he could network with. That would be
16 improper recross-examination. And we don't want to
17 prolong this, do we?
18 MR. TRABULUS: I will just go through the names
19 quickly.
20 THE WITNESS: Okay.
21 Q Joel, A R R E A Z O L A, Arreazola.
22 A Don't know hi
m.
23 Q Kenneth A. Becker. Debra Domkowski, 24 D O M K O W S K I. 25 A No.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5700 Skonie-recross/Trabulus
1 Q Ronald Duda, D U D A?
2 A No.
3 Q George R. Fisher, Jr.
4 A No.
5 Q F I S H E R.
6 Earl Freeman, F R E E M A N.
7 A No.
8 Q John Hughes?
9 A No.
10 Q Anita L. Johnson?
11 A No.
12 Q Peter J. La Salle, L A S A L L E?
13 A No.
14 Q Jacqueline L. Lambe, with an E at the end, spelled
15 like the animal with an E?
16 A No.
17 Q M C C E L L A N, so it is John B. McCellan, I
18 misread it.
19 John M. Scanlon, S C A N L O N?
20 A No.
21 Q And a Mr. Rifat, R I F A T?
22 A No.
23 MR. TRABULUS: No further questions. 24 THE COURT: Anything else? 25 MR. WHITE: Yes, your Honor.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5701 Skonie-recross/Dunn
1 MR. DUNN: I do, your Honor, one or two.
2
3 RECROSS-EXAMINATION
4 BY MR. DUNN:
5 Q Mr. Skonie, you said, I believe, on redirect
6 examination, that you believe that if you took a phone
7 book or just some book of names, and tried to write
8 somebody who was a CEO, and turn it into some business
9 opportunity, it is your position that you wouldn't even
10 have gotten a response to that?
11 A Depending on the person. I guess the example was the
12 chairman of the board of General Electric.
13 Q If you wanted to contact somebody and put the seal of
14 Who's Who on your letterhead, and wrote it to another
15 member stating you would like to meet with this person
16 about a possible business opportunity, is it your position
17 you wouldn't have gotte
n a response? Yes or no?
18 A I can't answer that in a yes or no.
19 Q Because you never tried; is that right?
20 A That's correct.
21 Q Now, sir, your main interest was developing your
22 business; is that correct?
23 A That's correct. 24 Q Networking, is that right? 25 A That's correct.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5702 Skonie-recross/Dunn
1 Q And if you had a good opportunity to network with
2 other people in similar lines of business, you would try
3 to take advantage of it; is that correct?
4 A I would try to take advantage of opportunities,
5 that's correct.
6 Q To network, correct?
7 A Right.
8 Q And whether you got those names, those people to
9 network with, from a mailing list or anywhere else, if you
10 could get a benefit from it, you would want to do it,
11 correct?
12 A That is correct.
13 MR. DUNN: No further questions, your Honor.
14 THE COURT: Anything else?
15 MS. SCOTT: Yes, your Honor.
16
17 FURTHER RECROSS-EXAMINATION
18 BY MS. SCOTT:
19 Q Mr. Skonie, you were asked a moment ago as to whether
20 you would sit back and wait to be contacted with -- from
21 other members of Who's Who Worldwide. Do you remember
22 that questions?
23 A Uh-huh. 24 THE COURT: Yes? 25 THE WITNESS: Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5703 Skonie-recross/Scott
1 Q Do you remember Mr. Trabulus suggesting you had not
2 given the company a chance when you decided not to
3 purchase the directory?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Now, during the time --
6 A Could you come by the microphone, because I can't
7 hear you.
8 Q Oh, sure.
9 During the time tha
t you were a member, were you
10 ever notified of any meetings or conferences or functions
11 involving members of Who's Who Worldwide?
12 A No.
13 Q Were you ever sent any copies of the magazine while
14 you were a member?
15 A Not to my recollection.
16 Q Now, you were asked some more questions about that
17 questionnaire you filled out in 1995?
18 A Right.
19 Q Do you remember being asked whether you had actually
20 written the word "nomination" or "nominate" in your
21 answers to questions 15, 25 and 26?
22 A Right.
23 Q And you testified that you did not use that word in 24 answer to any of those questions? 25 A Right.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5704 Skonie-recross/Scott
1 Q Is that correct?
2 A Right.
3 Q Now, did you use that word in answer to any other
4 questio
ns in the answers to the questionnaire?
5 MR. TRABULUS: Objection, your Honor.
6 THE COURT: Overruled. Do you have any such
7 answers?
8 MS. SCOTT: Yes.
9 Q Referring you to question three.
10 THE COURT: Tell us about it. We will take your
11 word for it.
12 Q Question 3.
13 A Okay.
14 Q Did you use the word "nominate" in your answer to
15 that question?
16 A Yes.
17 Q What about your answers to question 14B, as in
18 Baker?
19 A Yes, I did.
20 Q Now, Mr. Skonie, did you pay $290 to network with
21 people whose names were taken from a mailing list?
22 A No.
23 Q And at the time that you made this purchase, if 24 people's names, including your own, had been taken from 25 mailing lists, is that something you would have wanted to
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5705 Skonie-
recross/Scott
1 know before making a purchase?
2 MR. TRABULUS: Objection.
3 THE COURT: Sustained.
4 MR. WHITE: No further questions.
5 THE COURT: Anything else?
6 MR. TRABULUS: Very briefly.
7 THE COURT: I am trying to delay our recess so we
8 can conclude this witness so he can get back to work
9 today. That's my purpose.
10
11 FURTHER RECROSS-EXAMINATION
12 BY MR. TRABULUS:
13 Q Mr. Skonie, Ms. Scott asked you a couple of questions
14 in which you did use the word "nominate"; is that correct?
15 A Yes.
16 Q One was question three?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And that was, what were you told about the company,
19 its directories and your potential inclusion in them? And
20 your answer was, I had been nominated for inclusion by
21 someone; is that correct?
22 A That's correct.
23 Q And the other one was question 1
4; is that correct? 24 Is it 14-B -- I am sorry, 14-B. 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5706 Skonie-recross/Trabulus
1 Q And the question there is: Were you told whether
2 your name had been obtained from a mailing list? Did you
3 ask the salesman -- salesperson where they had obtained
4 your name? And you answered, I asked -- they said I was
5 nominated, but they could not reveal by whom.
6 A That's correct.
7 MR. TRABULUS: Thank you, Mr. Skonie.
8 THE COURT: Anyone else?
9 MR. NELSON: Very briefly.
10
11 FURTHER RECROSS-EXAMINATION
12 BY MR. NELSON:
13 Q Mr. Skonie, you had sent in your nominations --
14 A Would you start over, I didn't hear you.
15 Q I am sorry.
16 You sent in your ballot for inclusion in Who's
17 Who Worldwide in mid-September, 1993; is that correct?
18 A I guess so, yeah.
19 Q And you received the invoice, which is dated
20 September 21st, 1993, and that's Exhibit 67-B; is that
21 right?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Okay. 24 Now, you don't have with you today -- and we have 25 not been provided with -- the second invoice that was sent
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5707 Skonie-recross/Nelson
1 to you for purposes of the acquisition of the registry; is
2 that right?
3 A I don't believe I ever got an invoice for the
4 registry.
5 Q But you were contacted with respect to that; is that
6 correct?
7 A On the telephone, yes.
8 Q And that was in December of 1993; is that right?
9 A It was some short months after this.
10 Q So, in essence, when you testified that you hadn't
11 received anything from Who's Who Worldwide between the
12 time you
agreed to join and the time that you notified
13 Who's Who that you wished to cancel your membership, that
14 would have been around a 90 day period of time; is that
15 correct?
16 A I didn't notify them.
17 Q You spoke with someone on the telephone; is that
18 correct?
19 A They called me, and we had a conversation, and I told
20 them I was not interested in the directory.
21 Q And you also told them, if I am correct, that you
22 weren't interested in your membership; is that correct?
23 A Repeat that. 24 Q You weren't interested in your membership either; is 25 that correct?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5708 Skonie-recross/Nelson
1 A I told them I wasn't interested in pursuing their
2 offerings any longer.
3 Q You had given them a 90 day period of time; is that
4 correct?
5 A That's corr
ect.
6 THE COURT: Anything else?
7 MS. SCOTT: Nothing further.
8 THE COURT: All right.
9 You are excused.
10 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir.
11 (Whereupon, at this time the witness left the
12 witness stand.)
13 THE COURT: Members of the jury, we are going to
14 take a ten-minute recess. Please do not discuss the case,
15 and keep an open mind.
16 Please recess yourselves.
17 (Whereupon, at this time the jury leaves the
18 courtroom.)
19
20 (Whereupon, a recess is taken.)
21
22
23 24 25
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5709
1 (Whereupon, the jury at this time entered the
2 courtroom.)
3 THE COURT: Please be seated, members of the
4 jury.
5 You may proceed.
6 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, we will play a short
7 series of ta
pe excerpts now.
8 THE COURT: Hold it a minute, Mr. White.
9 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the
10 proceedings.)
11 THE COURT: You may proceed.
12 MR. WHITE: The first tape is 1356. The
13 transcript is the excerpt marked 1356-C, as in Charley.
14 The date is December 8th, 1994 and it is a call to
15 Sterling Who's Who.
16 (Tape is played.)
17 THE COURT: What number was that?
18 MR. WHITE: 1356-C, like in Charley.
19 THE COURT: Oh, C, I am sorry.
20 MR. NEVILLE: Your Honor, could Mr. White explain
21 who the salesperson was who made those utterances.
22 MR. WHITE: It is reflected on the transcript.
23 MR. NEVILLE: Well, could you say it? 24 MR. WHITE: It is Mr. Hammond -- I am sorry, it 25 is Mark Johnson.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5710
1 THE COURT: Mark Johnson
is the salesperson?
2 MR. WHITE: Yes, Mark Johnson.
3 The next one is 1307. The excerpt is 1307-B,
4 like in baker. The date is October 24th, 1994. It is a
5 call to Sterling Who's Who. And the salesperson is Scott
6 Matthews.
7 (Tape is played.)
8 MR. WHITE: The next one is 1309. The transcript
9 is 1309-D, for Dog. The date is October 27th, 1994. The
10 call is to Sterling Who's Who. And the employees on the
11 recording are Andrea Franklin and Mike Powers.
12 THE COURT: Mike Powers?
13 MR. WHITE: Yes.
14 (Tape is played.)
15 MR. WHITE: The next one is Exhibit 1331. The
16 date is December 14th, 1994. The call is to Sterling.
17 And the salesperson is Scott Matthews. The transcript is
18 1331-D, D like in Dog.
19 (Tape is played.)
20 MR. NEVILLE: That was Scott Matthews; is that
21 correct?
22 MR. WHITE: Correct.
23 MR. SCHOER: At Sterling? 24 MR. NEVILLE: At Sterling? 25 MR. WHITE: Yes. As I said before, that's
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5711
1 correct, Mr. Neville.
2 MR. NEVILLE: Thank you.
3 MR. WHITE: The next exhibit is 1305. The
4 transcript is 1305-A, like in Apple. The date is
5 September 6th, 1994. The call is to Who's Who Worldwide.
6 The employee on the tape is Roseanne Patton, P A T T O N.
7 (Tape is played.)
8 MR. WHITE: The next is 1334. The transcript is
9 1334-C, for Charley. The date is December 19th, 1994.
10 The call is to Who's Who Worldwide. And the employee is
11 Jill Barnes.
12 (Tape is played.)
13 MR. WHITE: Next is 1335. The transcript is
14 1335-B, for Baker. The date is December 19th, 1994. And
15 the call is to Sterling Who's Who. The employee is Mike
16 Phillips.
17 (Tape is played.)
18 MR. WHITE: Next is 1336. The transcript is
19 1336-D, for Dog. The date is September 20th, 1994. The
20 call is to Who's Who Worldwide. And the employee is John
21 Stevens.
22 (Tape is played.)
23 MR. WHITE: Next is 1342. The transcript is 24 1342-D, for Dog. The date is January 3rd, 1995. The call 25 is to Sterling Who's Who. And the salesperson is Barbara
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5712
1 McCabe, M C C A B E.
2 THE COURT: This is 1342 --
3 MR. WHITE: D for Dog, your Honor.
4 (Tape is played.)
5 MR. WHITE: Next is 1352. The transcript is
6 1352-A, for Apple. The date is April 21st, 1993. The
7 call is to Who's Who Worldwide and the salesperson is
8 Larry DeWitt, D E W I T T.
9 (Tape is played.)
10 MR. WHITE: That's it for the tapes for now, your
11 Honor.
12 The government calls Alan Saffer, S A F F E R.
13 THE COURT: Step up and raise your right hand.
14
15 A L A N S A F F E R ,
16 called as a witness, having been first
17 duly sworn, was examined and testified
18 as follows:
19
20 THE COURT: Please be seated.
21 State your name and spell your entire name,
22 please.
23 THE WITNESS: My name is Alan Saffer. 24 S A F F E R. 25 THE COURT: How do you spell your first name?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5713 Saffer-direct/White
1 THE WITNESS: A L A N.
2 THE COURT: You may proceed.
3
4 DIRECT EXAMINATION
5 BY MR. WHITE:
6 Q Mr. Saffer, can you tell us how old you are?
7 A 59 years of age.
8 Q Where do you live?
9 A In Valley Stream, New York.
10 Q Are you married?
11 A Yes,
I am.
12 Q Can you tell us how far you went in school?
13 A On a college level, six months, studying drafting at
14 Mechanics Institute in New York.
15 Q Are you currently employed?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And where do you work?
18 A Credit America.
19 Q And what sort of business is Credit America?
20 A They are a commercial finance company. They
21 specialize in leases and mortgages for people in the
22 petroleum industry.
23 Q And can you explain for us what sort of work you do 24 there? 25 A In -- I do telemarketing. And I set up appointments
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5714 Saffer-direct/White
1 for their sales staff. And also I am starting to do sales
2 on my own in the afternoon on a commission basis.
3 Q Now, did you ever work for a company known as Who's
4 Who Worldwide Registry?
5 A Yes, I did.
6 Q What was your position when you worked there?
7 A My title was associate director.
8 Q Can you describe briefly what you did as an associate
9 director?
10 A I would call people by telephone and try to sell them
11 a membership in Who's Who Worldwide.
12 Q Approximately when did you start working at Who's Who
13 Worldwide?
14 A Approximately July of 1990.
15 Q When did you stop working there?
16 A That was March 30th, 1995.
17 Q Why is it you stopped working there in March of '95?
18 A The postal inspectors came into the offices and said
19 that the company was under investigation.
20 Q Did anything happen to you on that day?
21 A Yes. I was arrested.
22 Q Now were you later charged with a crime?
23 A Yes, I was. 24 Q And what were you charged with? 25 A Conspiracy to commit mail fraud.
HARRY
RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5715 Saffer-direct/White
1 Q And what did that charge relate to?
2 A Excuse me?
3 Q What did that charge relate to?
4 A It related to statements that I made over the
5 telephone and misrepresentations that I made in my sales
6 presentation.
7 Q At Who's Who?
8 A At Who's Who.
9 Q Now, did you commit that crime?
10 A Yes, I did.
11 Q Did you plead guilty to conspiracy to commit mail
12 fraud?
13 A Yes, I did.
14 Q And can you tell us approximately when you pled
15 guilty?
16 A It was November of 1997.
17 Q Now, have you committed any other crimes besides
18 that?
19 A Yes. That was during a civil trial in connection
20 with the Marquis Who's Who, I believe.
21 MR. TRABULUS: Objection, your Honor. May we
22 approach?
23 THE COURT: Yes. Come up
. 24 25
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5716 Saffer-direct/White
1 (Whereupon, at this time the following took place
2 at the sidebar.)
3 THE COURT: Yes.
4 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, I am seeking to
5 preclude eliciting any testimony concerning this.
6 I believe, based upon what I understand the
7 government intends to do, is they are going to elicit that
8 this man committed perjury at the Marquis civil trial.
9 Now, that would be, I suppose 404(b) evidence
10 against Mr. Gordon, because I imagine he will say
11 Mr. Gordon put him up to it.
12 We have no charges in this case of Mr. Gordon
13 inducing anybody else to commit perjury. The only
14 allegations of perjury in this case in that civil trial or
15 anywhere relate to Mr. Gordon's own testimony in that
16 civil trial. This is prejudicial
. We were told there is
17 no 404(b) evidence to be admitted. And I seek to preclude
18 it.
19 MR. WHITE: If they don't want to cross-examine
20 him about it, I will not mention it.
21 THE COURT: They obviously are not going to
22 cross-examine him about it.
23 THE COURT: No one is going to attack him as 24 having fabricated in that earlier trial? If that's the 25 case I will be glad to not ask him.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5717 Saffer-direct/White
1 MR. JENKS: I am not agreeing to that.
2 MR. DUNN: Can we have a moment on that?
3 THE COURT: Sure.
4 (Defense counsel confer.)
5 THE COURT: What do you intend to bring out with
6 this witness, Mr. White?
7 MR. WHITE: I intend to bring out that he --
8 simply that he lied at that earlier proceeding.
9 THE COURT: That is not another crime th
at he is
10 accused of; is that right?
11 MR. WHITE: His cooperation agreement says that
12 the government will not charge him with perjury in
13 connection with that lawsuit.
14 THE COURT: He was never charged with perjury,
15 nor was he convicted of perjury?
16 MR. WHITE: Correct.
17 THE COURT: So that's out of the way.
18 When you say did you commit other crimes, that's
19 a very subjective thing. He was never charged with any
20 crime.
21 MR. WHITE: Correct.
22 THE COURT: You want to bring out he committed
23 perjury? 24 MR. WHITE: Only if they are. 25 THE COURT: They are obviously going to ask about
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5718 Saffer-direct/White
1 it. So you can anticipate it.
2 Be careful about it. Mr. Trabulus is going to
3 watch it closely and object when he wants t
o object in
4 addition to this objection.
5 MR. TRABULUS: Yes.
6 THE COURT: You have a right to make further
7 objections all along. I will let him bring it out.
8 Please bring it out quickly and get to it.
9 If they come out on cross-examination, and have a
10 field day with it, then you can come back on redirect.
11 MR. WHITE: For purposes of making sure we comply
12 with your Honor's ruling, can I ask a leading question,
13 like, were you untruthful in your testimony in the prior
14 case?
15 THE COURT: Yes. I will allow that.
16 MR. WHITE: Okay.
17
18 (Whereupon, at this time the following takes
19 place in open court.)
20 Q Mr. Saffer, you mentioned a lawsuit between Marquis
21 Who's Who and Who's Who Worldwide?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And were you untruthful in your testimony in 24 connection with that proceeding? 25 A
Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5719 Saffer-direct/White
1 Q Now, at the time that you pled guilty to conspiracy
2 to commit mail fraud, did you enter into an agreement with
3 the government?
4 A Yes, I did.
5 Q And are you testifying here today as part of your
6 agreement with the government?
7 A Yes, I am.
8 Q Can you tell us, what is your understanding that you
9 have to do under that agreement?
10 A I have to report any criminal activity, to tell the
11 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth; and to
12 agree to testify in court.
13 Q And what is your understanding of what the government
14 has agreed to do if you cooperate?
15 A The government has agreed to send a 5K letter to
16 Judge Spatt, indicating that I had fully cooperated with
17 the cooperation agreement.
18 Q An
d what is your understanding of what the judge can
19 do if the government does write this letter?
20 A Judge Spatt can reduce my sentence.
21 Q Now, have you been sentenced yet?
22 A No, I haven't.
23 Q What is your understanding of what the maximum 24 sentence you can face is? 25 A A term of five years.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5720 Saffer-direct/White
1 Q And can the judge who sentences you impose a fine?
2 A Yes, he can.
3 Q And what is your understanding of what the maximum
4 fine is?
5 A The maximum fine could be $250,000.
6 Q And when you are sentenced, can you be required to
7 make restitution for the losses caused as a result of the
8 fraud that you participated in?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Have you received any promises from the government
11 about what sentence you will receive?
12 A No.
13 Q Have you received any promises from anyone about what
14 sentence you will receive?
15 A No, I have not.
16 Q What is your understanding of who will ultimately
17 determine what your sentence will be?
18 A From what I understand, Judge Spatt will determine my
19 sentence.
20 Q Now, while you were employed at Who's Who Worldwide,
21 did you ever hear the term "black room?"
22 A Yes, I have.
23 Q Tell me was the black room was? 24 A The black room was a separate room from the other 25 part of the company, which housed approximately ten or
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5721 Saffer-direct/White
1 twelve of some of the top salespersons at the company,
2 Who's Who Worldwide.
3 Q Now, while the black room was in existence, did you
4 sit in the black room?
5 A Yes, I did.
6 Q Now, do you know a woman named Laura Weitz, or Laura
7 Winters?
8 A Yes, I do.
9 Q And how do you know her?
10 MR. LEE: Objection, your Honor.
11 THE COURT: On what ground?
12 MR. LEE: The instruction. There was a prior --
13 THE COURT: Pardon me?
14 MR. LEE: May I approach, your Honor?
15 THE COURT: No. It is not necessary.
16 Overruled.
17 MR. WHITE: If I rephrase the question I believe
18 it will address Mr. Lee's concern.
19 THE COURT: Yes.
20 Q Did Ms. Weitz work at Who's Who Worldwide?
21 A Yes, she did.
22 Q When you arrived at the company in mid-1990, did she
23 work there? 24 A Yes, she did. 25 Q Already?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5722 Saffer-direct/White
1 A Yes.
2 Q Now, while the black room was in effect, was in
3 operation, did Ms. We
itz work in the black room?
4 A Yes, for a period of time.
5 Q Now, do you know a person named Annette Haley?
6 A Yes, I do.
7 Q How do you know Annette Haley?
8 A She also was a salesperson at Who's Who Worldwide,
9 and she was in the black room, too.
10 Q And can you tell us approximately when Ms. Haley
11 joined Who's Who Worldwide?
12 A It was approximately 1994.
13 Q Now, do you know a man named Scott Michaelson?
14 A Yes, I do.
15 Q How do you know Mr. Michaelson?
16 A He was a salesperson at Who's Who Worldwide. And he
17 sat in the black room also.
18 Q Can you recall approximately when Mr. Michaelson
19 joined the company?
20 A I believe it was also about the same time, early
21 1994, maybe 1993, in the middle of 1993.
22 Q Now, do you know a person named Steve Rubin or Steve
23 Walden? 24 A Yes, I do. 25
Q And who is he?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5723 Saffer-direct/White
1 A He was the salesperson at Who's Who Worldwide.
2 Q And do you know approximately when he joined the
3 company?
4 A Mr. Walden joined the company in about 1994 or
5 thereabouts.
6 Q Now, do you know a person named Tara Garboski, or
7 Tara Green?
8 A Yes, I do.
9 Q Now, can you tell us approximately when Ms. Garboski
10 joined Who's Who Worldwide?
11 A It was in the summer of 1990.
12 Q During the years that you were at Who's Who
13 Worldwide, can you tell us what her position at the
14 company was?
15 A In the beginning she was a salesperson, an associate
16 director, just like myself.
17 Q And then did she have another position?
18 A Yes. Then she went on to become manager -- a
19 manager.
20 Q Now
, for the lion share of the time you were at Who's
21 Who Worldwide, did you have a supervisor?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And who was that? 24 A Well, it was basically Tara Green, my manager, my 25 supervisor.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5724 Saffer-direct/White
1 Q Now, do you know a man named Frank Martin?
2 A Yes, I do.
3 Q Who is Frank Martin?
4 A Frank Martin was a manager at Who's Who Worldwide.
5 Q And do you remember approximately when it was that
6 Mr. Martin worked at the company?
7 A Approximately 1991; approximately 1991.
8 Q And was there a period when Mr. Martin left the
9 company and returned?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Do you remember approximately when he returned?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And when did he return?
14 A Yes, in 1994, as a manager.
15 Q Can you describe what your job respo
nsibilities at
16 Who's Who Worldwide were?
17 A To contact people by telephone and to sell a
18 membership in Who's Who Worldwide, basically sales and
19 telemarketing.
20 Q And where did you get the names and telephone numbers
21 of these potential customers?
22 A From my manager.
23 Q And did you receive these names and telephone numbers 24 from your manager on any sort of document? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5725 Saffer-direct/White
1 Q And what sort of document was that?
2 A It was a lead card. It is a card that was mailed
3 into the company.
4 Q Now, did Mr. Gordon ever indicate to you where these
5 lead cards had come from?
6 MR. TRABULUS: Objection to form, your Honor.
7 THE COURT: Sustained as to form. You can pursue
8 it.
9 Q Did anyone at the company ever in
dicate to you where
10 these lead cards had come from?
11 MR. TRABULUS: Same objection, your Honor.
12 THE COURT: Overruled.
13 A Yes. Mr. Gordon indicated that he would drop
14 mailings of about 100,000 at a time, and then the reply
15 cards would come in about two weeks after the drop.
16 Q You used the term "drop". Was that a term used by
17 Mr. Gordon?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And can you explain for us what your understanding is
20 of what that means?
21 A He was sending out -- he was contacting about 100,000
22 people to notify them of our existence. And they would
23 return a reply card, which was the lead card I was 24 referring to before, if they wanted to request a 25 membership.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5726 Saffer-direct/White
1 Q Now, did anyone ever say anything to you regarding
2
the cost of these cards?
3 A Yes. Mr. Gordon.
4 Q What did Mr. Gordon say?
5 A At times he would mention the fact that they cost him
6 approximately 15 to 25 dollars a card, 20 dollars a card.
7 Q Did anyone ever say anything regarding the
8 occupations or industries of people to whom the cards were
9 sent?
10 A Mister -- would you repeat the question?
11 Q Did anyone at the company ever say anything about the
12 occupations or industries to whom these cards -- the
13 people to whom these cards were sent?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Who is that?
16 A Mr. Gordon indicated he would hone in on a particular
17 industry.
18 Q Can you give us an example of an industry that
19 Mr. Gordon mentioned?
20 A The computer industry, for one.
21 Q Can you recall any others?
22 A Yes. And another time, the travel industry, and
23 health care industry.
24 Q Now, did anyone at the company ever say anything 25 regarding the names that had signed the letters that were
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5727 Saffer-direct/White
1 sent out to potential customers?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And who was that?
4 A Mr. Gordon.
5 Q What did Mr. Gordon say about that?
6 A He would indicate from time to time that you might
7 get calls at -- from people asking for a Cathy Ross. And
8 he mentioned Cathy Ross is the name that is used on a
9 particular letter for a particular industry.
10 Q Now, as a salesperson, did you ever notice any
11 pattern to the cards that you received?
12 A Yes.
13 Q What pattern did you observe?
14 A There was the pattern -- first of all, all of a
15 sudden all the leads were coming from people involved in
16 the computer industry at times. And
then other times in
17 the travel industry. And then at other times, people in
18 the health care industry; and at times people in the
19 professional services industry also.
20 Q And can you explain what you mean by a pattern? How
21 was that a pattern?
22 A I would receive approximately 20 leads each morning,
23 lead cards. And I noticed that the pattern was as 24 follows: The lead cards for like a two, three week 25 period, would be mostly all of them in a computer
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5728 Saffer-direct/White
1 industry, or in a specific industry.
2 Q Now, did the lead cards that you would receive
3 contain any codes on them?
4 A Well, as I remember, some lead cards were printed in
5 one particular color, the printing. And there were some
6 numerals or letters on the right hand bottom corner --
7 yes, on the right hand bottom corner.
8 Q Now, did you ever have any discussions with any
9 salespeople -- other salespersons at the company --
10 regarding those codes, or colors of cards?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Who did you have that discussion with?
13 A A woman by the name of Angela Palmer who sat to the
14 right of me.
15 THE COURT: How do you spell Palmer?
16 THE WITNESS: P A L M E R.
17 Q Can you tell us the substance of that discussion?
18 MR. SCHOER: Objection.
19 THE COURT: What grounds?
20 MR. SCHOER: Hearsay.
21 THE COURT: Is Angela Palmer an employee?
22 THE WITNESS: Yes, she was.
23 THE COURT: Of what company? 24 THE WITNESS: Who's Who Worldwide. 25 THE COURT: Overruled.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5729 Saffer-direct/White
1 Q Tell us your discussions with Angela Palmer ab
out the
2 cards and the codes?
3 A She mentioned to me that she was showing me, talking
4 to me about a particular lead card, and she brought my
5 attention to the lower right-hand corner, which were
6 letters and numerals. It was in the form of a code. And
7 she mentioned to me that this particular code is from a
8 particular industry.
9 Q And subsequent to that conversation did you have a
10 conversation with any other salespeople regarding the
11 cards or codes on them?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Okay.
14 And who was that with?
15 A Scott Michaelson.
16 Q And tell us your discussions on that subject with
17 Mr. Michaelson?
18 A It was a brief discussion. Mr. Michaelson mentioned
19 the particular cards that he was using he didn't like the
20 cards and they were very hard to sell. They were of lower
21 echelons. The business titles were like
general managers,
22 and things like that. Not presidents of corporations, who
23 were easier to sell. 24 Q Now, who is it that would provide you with these lead 25 cards?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5730 Saffer-direct/White
1 A My manager, Tara Green.
2 Q Did you ever receive cards from a manager that had
3 joke answers on them?
4 A Yes, occasionally I did.
5 Q Can you explain what sort of joke answers would be on
6 them?
7 A They were usually written in sometimes bold letters
8 that you got my name from a mailing list, or remove my
9 name from the mailing list, or other comments, that this
10 is nonsense, are you kidding, things like that.
11 Q Now, did you ever receive in addition to the lead
12 cards, Who's Who Worldwide nomination ballots?
13 A Yes, I did.
14 Q Can you tell us, when
were nomination ballots first
15 used at Who's Who Worldwide?
16 A On or about 1993.
17 Q Now, prior to that time, when nomination ballots were
18 instituted, what percentage of individuals that you
19 contacted to become members, were nominated?
20 MR. LEE: Objection to the form of that question,
21 your Honor.
22 THE COURT: Yes. Sustained as to form.
23 A Repeat that question. 24 THE COURT: No. When I sustain the objection, 25 don't answer it. There will be another question,
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5731 Saffer-direct/White
1 Mr. Saffer.
2 THE WITNESS: Thanks.
3 Q Prior to the time in 1993 when you said Who's Who
4 Worldwide instituted nomination ballots, did you ever
5 receive anything else besides a lead card to call a member
6 with?
7 A Yes.
8 Q What else would you receiv
e besides a lead card?
9 A There was a time I was given a computerized list of
10 individuals to call.
11 Q I am going to get to that in a second, but let me
12 rephrase the question.
13 Did you ever -- prior to the time the nomination
14 ballots were instituted --
15 A Uh-huh.
16 Q -- did you ever receive nominations in any other
17 form?
18 A Oh, yes.
19 Q What form would you receive those nominations in?
20 A Sometimes it was in the form of a fax sheet, or on a
21 letterhead from a particular company, an individual's
22 company nominated somebody else.
23 Q From the time you began employment in 1990, until the 24 ballots were instituted in 1993, can you describe for us 25 how many nominations you received in that form?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5732 Saffer-direct/White
1 A Very few.
2 Q Now, after the nomination ballots were instituted in
3 1993, can you tell us what percentage of the leads you got
4 were ballots as opposed to leads cards.
5 MR. NELSON: Objection.
6 THE COURT: What grounds?
7 MR. NELSON: Both as to form and as to timing,
8 your Honor.
9 THE COURT: Overruled as to both.
10 Q You need me to repeat the question?
11 A What percentage?
12 Q Let me repeat the question.
13 After the ballots were instituted -- the
14 nomination ballots were instituted in 1993, what
15 percentage of the leads that you got were ballots as
16 opposed to lead cards?
17 A I would say about two percent.
18 Q And what percent then would be lead cards?
19 A 98 percent.
20 Q From whom did you receive these nomination ballots?
21 A I received the nomination ballots from Mr. Gordon.
22 Q Can you explain for us the proced
ure by which the
23 nomination ballots would be handed out? 24 A At times Mr. Gordon would walk around and 25 sporadically distribute some ballot cards.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5733 Saffer-direct/White
1 Q And did you make any observations regarding when you
2 would be given nomination ballots?
3 A Yes.
4 Q When was it you would observe that you would get
5 nomination ballots?
6 A Normally when I was having a good day in sales, I
7 would receive -- he would have a tendency of giving me a
8 nomination ballot.
9 Q Now, did Mr. Gordon ever explain to you why he was
10 giving out nomination ballots in this fashion?
11 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the
12 proceedings.)
13 THE COURT: Did you hear that question?
14 THE WITNESS: Yes, I did.
15 THE COURT: You are thinking about
it?
16 THE WITNESS: Yes.
17 THE COURT: Go ahead.
18 MR. WHITE: Maybe I can rephrase it and ask a
19 more general question?
20 THE COURT: Go ahead.
21 Q Did Mr. Gordon say anything regarding under what
22 circumstances a salesperson would receive nomination
23 ballots? 24 A Yes, he did. 25 He indicated that you would get nomination
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5734 Saffer-direct/White
1 ballots, which was a very good lead, over and above the
2 regular lead card, only if you are having good sales, if
3 you are selling. And if you are not, you are not going to
4 receive ballot cards.
5 Q Now, you mentioned before that in addition to the
6 nominations and the lead cards, you at times received
7 leads in the form of lists; is that correct?
8 A Yes.
9 Q What sort of lists are you refer
ring to?
10 A It was a -- there seems to be a computerized list of
11 names, addresses and phone numbers in the business
12 context, business titles of individuals.
13 Q Now, can you tell us approximately how often you
14 received these type of lists?
15 A I recall in -- when I was working in Port Washington,
16 it must have been approximately 1991, or thereabouts, I
17 received a list. It was an optional -- I had an option to
18 use the list or not use the list.
19 Q Can you explain to us the circumstances under which
20 you would be offered the option to use these computerized
21 list?
22 MR. SCHOER: Objection to the form of the
23 question. 24 THE COURT: Overruled. 25 A It seemed to me when the lead cards were slow coming
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5735 Saffer-direct/White
1 in, Mr. Gordon off
ered the salespeople these lists that
2 they could use, if they liked. And you were paid a higher
3 commission if you made a sale off of that list. It was
4 like a cold call.
5 Q What commission were you offered in connection with
6 making a sale from one of these lists?
7 A It was approximately 18 percent, 20 percent, in that
8 category.
9 Q And if you made a sale from a lead card, what would
10 be the commission the salesperson would earn typically?
11 A 12 and a half percent.
12 Q Now, did you make calls from these computerized lists
13 that you received?
14 A Yes, I did.
15 Q Now, did you learn where these lists -- what these
16 were lists of?
17 A Yes. Eventually I did.
18 Q And tell us what you learned.
19 A In the course of using that particular computerized
20 list, I came across some -- an individual or two who gave
21 me s
ome flak about the fact that he was nominated, and he
22 stated that you -- that you had to get my name from a
23 mailing list. 24 MR. LEE: Objection, your Honor. 25 THE COURT: Sustained.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5736 Saffer-direct/White
1 Strike out what the person allegedly said. The
2 jury is instructed to disregard it.
3 Q Did you call anyone whose name or address was
4 incorrect?
5 A Yes.
6 Q In what way was it incorrect?
7 MR. SCHOER: Objection.
8 THE COURT: How did you find out it was
9 incorrect?
10 THE WITNESS: Well, I received some flak from a
11 particular individual stating that --
12 MR. SCHOER: Objection.
13 THE COURT: Don't tell me what the individual
14 stated.
15 It was as a result of a conversation with another
16 person?
17 THE WITNESS: Yes
.
18 THE COURT: Sustained.
19 Q Now, did you ever receive instructions from
20 Mr. Gordon about what to tell customers from where you had
21 obtained their names?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And what did Mr. Gordon say? 24 A He -- I heard him mention a few times, just never to 25 mention that you got the name, his name from -- or her
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5737 Saffer-direct/White
1 name -- from a mailing list. Never mention a mailing
2 list.
3 Q Did Mr. Gordon say anything regarding what you were
4 to tell customers when they asked that question?
5 A Repeat that?
6 Q Did Mr. Gordon ever say anything to you what you were
7 to answer to customers who asked, where did you get my
8 name?
9 A Yes. It was on an objection sheet, which stated at
10 my level I couldn't tell you. However, I could say that
11 some individuals are nominated, and some peoples' names
12 were submitted to our research department. There might
13 have been an article published about them in a magazine.
14 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, may I just have one
15 moment?
16 THE COURT: Yes.
17 (Mr. White confers with Inspector Pagano.)
18 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, I am sorry.
19 THE COURT: It is all right.
20 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the
21 proceedings.)
22 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, at this point we will
23 play a two or three minute tape. 24 THE COURT: We will take a break instead of 25 that.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5738 Saffer-direct/White
1 You say it is two or three minutes?
2 MR. WHITE: I think so.
3 THE COURT: We will try it.
4 MR. WHITE: We will squeeze it in before 12:30.
5 THE COU
RT: Let's move along. I mentioned
6 August, but I was only jesting.
7 What is the exhibit number?
8 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, it is 1403.
9 Your Honor, this is Exhibit 1403, recorded on
10 February 15th, 1995 at Who's Who Worldwide.
11 We are going to be playing the first excerpt,
12 which goes up to the middle of page 2.
13 THE COURT: Very well.
14 (Tape is played.)
15 THE COURT: Members of the jury, we will recess
16 until 1:30 for lunch. Keep an open mind. We will see you
17 at 1:30.
18 Have a nice lunch.
19 (Whereupon, at this time the jury leaves the
20 courtroom.)
21 (Luncheon Recess.)
22
23 24 25
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5739 Saffer-direct/White
1 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N
2
3 THE CLERK: Jury entering.
4
5 A L A N
S A F F E R ,
6 called as a witness, having been previously
7 duly sworn, was examined and testified as
8 follows:
9
10 THE COURT: Please be seated, members of the
11 jury.
12 You may proceed.
13
14 DIRECT EXAMINATION (cont'd)
15 BY MR. WHITE:
16 Q Mr. Saffer, the tape we heard before we broke for
17 lunch, prior to that time, prior to court, have you ever
18 heard that tape before?
19 A No.
20 Q Now, do you know what Dun & Bradstreet printouts are?
21 A Yes. I know what they are.
22 Q And what are they?
23 A They are lists of people in various industries. And 24 I believe you could purchase this list, if you wish. 25 Q Now, did you use any written materials when you spoke
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5740 Saffer-direct/White
1 with a potential customer on the t
elephone?
2 A Yes, I did.
3 Q And what written materials would you use?
4 A It was a script that was provided to me.
5 Q Have you ever heard the term pitch sheet?
6 A Yes.
7 Q What is a pitch sheet?
8 A That's the outline that was given to me to use to
9 present to a potential customer.
10 Q And by whom would that be given to you?
11 A By the managers. They used to distribute them.
12 Q Now, have you ever heard the term, objection sheet?
13 A Yes, I have.
14 Q And what is an objection sheet?
15 A It is also a pitch sheet. It is a supplement to the
16 initial pitch sheet.
17 Q And under what circumstances would you use an
18 objection sheet?
19 A If you were asked a question and someone was
20 objecting to purchase a membership, it was an objection
21 sheet you would use to overcome the objection to entice
22 them to purchas
e a membership.
23 Q Now, in connection with your work at Who's Who 24 Worldwide had you ever heard the term close, C L O S E? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5741 Saffer-direct/White
1 Q And what does it mean to close?
2 A To close, it was like a power close. Statements for
3 us to use, to again entice someone to purchase a
4 membership.
5 Q And where in terms of your sales presentation would
6 the close come?
7 A At the end of the presentation, of the script.
8 Q It is used to close the deal?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Have you ever heard the term "a drop close?"
11 A Yes, I have.
12 Q What is a "drop close?"
13 A A drop close is to be used if a perspective member
14 that you are speaking to, if I felt the membership was a
15 little too much for him at that time, there were different
16 prices to different memberships. There were different
17 durations to different memberships, which had different
18 prices.
19 A drop close was used to offer a particular
20 person I was speaking to a membership that was a shorter
21 duration and more affordable for him.
22 Q Did you ever see a document at Who's Who Worldwide
23 called "power statements?" 24 A Yes. 25 Q And what were "power statements?"
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5742 Saffer-direct/White
1 A Power statements were to be used, again, to persuade
2 someone and entice someone to purchase a membership. It
3 is a sales technique.
4 Q All these various types of scripts you described, did
5 anyone at the company ever tell you who had written them?
6 A Well, Mr. Gordon indicated that he did, because he
7 would mention to us on many occasions th
at his way was the
8 best. And he was in the telemarketing business for
9 approximately 50 years, I believe. And that these pitches
10 do work. And they had been proven before to be
11 successful. And I know that I had to use them.
12 Q Did you observe Mr. Gordon ever making written
13 changes to scripts?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Can you describe that for us.
16 A This was a meeting of all the salespeople where
17 Mr. Gordon was actually reading a particular script to us
18 to show us how in his eyes the pitch should come across to
19 the person you are speaking to. And in the course of
20 bringing a pitch, he made an adjustment in the pitch of a
21 particular line say, and I saw him writing the corrections
22 on that sheet.
23 Q Now, can you tell us how often, if at all, the 24 scripts were changed or revised? 25 A Quite frequently.
HARRY R
APAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5743 Saffer-direct/White
1 Q Can you give us an idea of the frequency?
2 A Sometimes they were changed twice a day. And
3 sometimes once or twice a month.
4 Q Would it vary, the frequency?
5 A Yes, it would vary, yes.
6 Q Let me put this binder of exhibits in front of you.
7 If you can take a look at that book at the
8 following exhibits: 327 through 333, 335 --
9 A 327.
10 Q Let me go batch by batch.
11 Start with 327 through 333.
12 A Yes.
13 Q For identification.
14 327 and 328, do you recognize what those are?
15 A Yes, I do.
16 Q And what are they?
17 A They are power statements.
18 Q Do you recognize them as ones provided to you in the
19 course of your employment at Who's Who Worldwide?
20 A Yes, I do.
21 Q All right.
22 Now, the next batch is
329 through 333 and 335
23 through 337. 24 A Yes, I recognize these. 25 Q What sort of documents are those?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5744 Saffer-direct/White
1 A These were objection lists, objection sheets.
2 Q Were those provided to you while you were at Who's
3 Who Worldwide?
4 A Yes, they were.
5 Q Now, if you can look at Exhibits 343 through 346 --
6 A Yes.
7 Q What do you recognize those documents as?
8 A They were all drop closes.
9 Q And were those documents -- you recognize those as
10 documents provided to you while you worked at Who's Who
11 Worldwide?
12 A Yes, I do.
13 Q And finally, if you look at 347 through 392 -- I am
14 sorry, correction, 347 through 386, and 391 and 392.
15 A You want me to look through each one?
16 Q You can page through them.
17 (
Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the
18 proceedings.)
19 A These are all pitch sheets I used in the past.
20 Q At Who's Who Worldwide?
21 A At Who's Who Worldwide.
22 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, the government offers
23 Exhibits 337 -- 327 through 333, 335 through 337, 343 24 through 386, 391 and 392. 25 THE COURT: Any objection?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5745 Saffer-direct/White
1 MR. TRABULUS: No.
2 THE COURT: All of those exhibits in evidence.
3 (Government's Exhibits 327 through 333 received
4 in evidence.)
5 (Government's Exhibits 335 through 337 received
6 in evidence.)
7 (Government's Exhibits 343 through 386 received
8 in evidence.)
9 (Government's Exhibit 391 received in evidence.)
10 (Government's Exhibit 392 received in evidence.)
11 Q Mr. Saffer, if you can t
urn to Exhibit 361; and if
12 you can look a third of the way down the page, to the line
13 where you -- where it begins, you can anonymously
14 nominate.
15 A A third of the way down?
16 Q Do you see that?
17 A The second paragraph?
18 Q Let me see if I can point it out.
19 (Counsel approaches the witness stand.)
20 A I see.
21 Q Now, could you read that sentence aloud for us,
22 please.
23 A You can anonymously nominate up to two qualifying 24 individuals annually much like you were nominated. 25 Q And can you look in the upper left-hand corner and
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5746 Saffer-direct/White
1 tell us the date of that pitch sheet?
2 A 12/22/92.
3 THE COURT: Do you want to pull the microphone
4 closer?
5 THE WITNESS: I am sorry.
6 Q If you look at Exhibit 392,
which is in the back of
7 the book.
8 A Yes.
9 Q In the middle of the page, can you read the numbered
10 paragraph that starts with 3.
11 A Yes.
12 As a member you can anonymously nominate up to
13 two qualifying individuals annually, just like you have
14 been nominated.
15 Q If you can go back to Exhibit 374.
16 A 374.
17 Q And read the paragraph in the middle which is
18 numbered 3.
19 A As a member you can anonymously nominate up to two
20 qualifying individuals annually, just like you have been
21 nominated.
22 Q Okay.
23 Now, turn to Exhibit 348. 24 A Yes, I have it. 25 Q And if you can look about two-thirds of the way down
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5747 Saffer-direct/White
1 the page, there is a paragraph that begins with
2 memberships are only availabl
e.
3 A Yes, I see it.
4 Q Could you read that aloud for us, slowly.
5 A Memberships are only available through normal
6 attrition of the present members. Right now there is a
7 lifetime and a five-year membership available.
8 Q Now, turn to Exhibit 353.
9 Would you read the paragraph two-thirds of the
10 way down that starts with, memberships are available?
11 A The memberships are available through normal
12 attrition of the established members, and they become
13 available twice a year.
14 Shall I continue?
15 Q No, that's fine.
16 And look at the next one, 354. Again, there is a
17 paragraph that says that memberships are available.
18 A I see it.
19 Q Is that the same language as the one you just read?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Turn to the next page, 355, Exhibit 355.
22 Do you see the paragraph that begins with
23 Mr. Blank, memb
erships become available? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Okay.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5748 Saffer-direct/White
1 Read us the first sentence of that paragraph.
2 A Mr. Blank, memberships become available once or twice
3 a year, and they become available because of normal
4 attrition of the existing members.
5 Q Okay.
6 Now, turn to Exhibit 363.
7 Now, the first paragraphs of this pitch, are
8 those the first things you would say to a customer on the
9 telephone?
10 A The first paragraph?
11 Q Yes.
12 A Yes.
13 Q Now, can you read us the first two paragraphs as if
14 you were on the telephone to a customer?
15 A Hello, Mr. Blank. This is -- I would say Alan
16 Saffer. I am the associate director of Who's Who
17 Worldwide. We are the publishers of the Who's Who
18 Registry of global b
usiness leaders. We are also the
19 largest Who's Who membership organization in the world. A
20 while back our membership director contacted you or tried
21 to contact you to qualify you as a candidate for a listing
22 in the Who's Who Registry and for possible membership in
23 Who's Who Worldwide. 24 The second paragraph also? 25 Q Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5749 Saffer-direct/White
1 A At that time the memberships had been closed because
2 they are available only through normal attrition of
3 established members. A few memberships have just become
4 available.
5 What I need to do now is to conduct a brief
6 interview to determine your eligibility for inclusion in
7 the Who's Who registry of global business leaders, and a
8 possible membership in Who's Who Worldwide.
9 Q Okay.
10 Now, if y
ou look at the next exhibit, 364. And,
11 again, read us the first paragraph -- the first sentence
12 of the second paragraph.
13 A I am moving your sticker.
14 At that time, because of the normal attrition of
15 the established members we had only a five-year membership
16 available, which is fully committed at this time. Right
17 now we have a two-year membership available due to normal
18 attrition.
19 Q If you can flip ahead to Exhibit 372.
20 Do you see where it says start interview?
21 A Yes, I do.
22 Q And the next paragraph, is that what follows after
23 you finished interviewing the customer? 24 A Yes, based on the information we compiled? 25 Q Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5750 Saffer-direct/White
1 A Yes.
2 Q Read the first two sentences of that paragraph.
3 A Based on the i
nformation we have compiled, I am going
4 to submit your application to the public affairs office
5 for your inclusion in the Who's Who Registry, and as a
6 possible member of Who's Who Worldwide. There is usually
7 a waiting list for memberships because of the obvious
8 prestige of being listed in Who's Who. But executives who
9 want the exclusive networking benefits associated with the
10 membership, and this is because our members are the best
11 target audience in the world.
12 Q Okay.
13 Now, if you would look on Exhibit 329.
14 A Objection sheet.
15 Q Now, paragraph two of that says "literature." What
16 does that refer to?
17 A If somebody asks you to send me literature, this is
18 an objection that was to be used.
19 Q Can you tell us what response you were to give if the
20 customer asked for literature?
21 A We were instructed to say that w
e are not a marketing
22 company. We don't seek new members. You have been
23 selected and accepted. Memberships are available through 24 normal attrition. We did send you a letter with the 25 authorization form which you sent back to us.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5751 Saffer-direct/White
1 Q Okay.
2 Now putting aside those scripts, were you in your
3 five years at Who's Who Worldwide, ever informed of any
4 limit on the number of memberships you could sell?
5 A No. It was unlimited.
6 Q Were memberships available only once or twice per
7 year?
8 A No. They were available at all times.
9 Q In your five years at Who's Who Worldwide were you
10 ever informed that there was a waiting list for
11 memberships?
12 A No.
13 Q Were you ever informed that memberships were filled
14 and you could
not sell any more?
15 A No. I was never informed.
16 Q Now, did memberships in Who's Who Worldwide only
17 become available through attrition of existing members?
18 A No.
19 Q Did you have to wait until an existing member died or
20 dropped out of membership before you could sell another
21 membership?
22 A No.
23 Q Now, as it said in Exhibit 329, was it true that you 24 did not solicit new members? 25 A No, that was not true. We did solicit new members --
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5752 Saffer-direct/White
1 prospective members.
2 Q Prospective.
3 Was it ever the case that you just had a few
4 memberships suddenly open up?
5 A No. They were always available.
6 Q Okay.
7 Now, if you can look back at the exhibit book at
8 366.
9 A Yes.
10 Q Could you read the
paragraph that begins, after the
11 start interview.
12 A Listings in the registry and memberships in Who's Who
13 Worldwide are available through normal attrition of the
14 established members. Who's Who Worldwide members receive
15 so many exclusive complimentary privileges, which is the
16 reason we get over 2,000 applications a day.
17 Unfortunately, not everyone qualifies and most people are
18 denied.
19 Q Denied what?
20 A Membership, I am sorry.
21 Q Now, if you can turn to Exhibit 374; and if you can
22 read the second paragraph of that?
23 A The Who's Who Registry is limited to 60,000 business 24 leaders who are nominated, usually by established members 25 and qualified for inclusion in the Who's Who Registry.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5753 Saffer-direct/White
1 What I need -- what I need now i
s to verify your
2 information to determine your status for inclusion in the
3 registry because only five percent of all nominees are
4 accepted.
5 Q Could you look in the upper right hand corner and
6 tell us the date of that pitch sheet?
7 A 1/10/94.
8 Q If you turn to the next exhibit, Exhibit 375.
9 A Yes.
10 Q And if you read the first -- look at the second
11 paragraph after, start interview.
12 A Yes.
13 Q That begins with this starts wonderful.
14 A Yes.
15 Q Could you read the sentence, two sentences after
16 that.
17 A I think you will make an important addition to the
18 Who's Who Registry and membership. As a point of interest
19 only about 14 percent of these individuals who apply for
20 inclusion are actually accepted.
21 Q And what is the date of that pitch sheet?
22 A That is 1/10/94.
23 Q The same
one you just read for us before? 24 A That's correct. 25 Q If you turn now to Exhibit 379; and if you can
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5754 Saffer-direct/White
1 read -- look at the third paragraph, the last sentence,
2 that begins with, in fact.
3 A Yes.
4 It states: In fact, we receive about 5,000
5 requests each month for inclusion, and we accept less than
6 1,000 new members.
7 Q Now, if you can turn to 383.
8 First of all, can you tell us the date of that
9 pitch sheet?
10 A Yes. 12/19/94.
11 Q And if you can read the last sentence of the third
12 paragraph.
13 A Based on this interview?
14 Q Yes.
15 A Based on this interview I can recommend you for
16 inclusion. As a point of interest only about seven
17 percent of those candidates who apply for inclusion are
18 act
ually accepted. So in this light, we offer you our
19 congratulations.
20 Q And so, on December 19th, 1994, it says seven percent
21 of the candidates who applied for inclusion are actually
22 accepted; is that correct?
23 A That is correct. 24 Q Now, turn to the next exhibit, to Exhibit 385, sir. 25 Now, what is the date of that pitch sheet?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5755 Saffer-direct/White
1 A 12/20/94.
2 Q So, that's the day after the one that you just read
3 to us?
4 A That's correct.
5 Q All right.
6 And if you can look at the fourth paragraph and
7 read the last sentence that begins with, in fact.
8 A In fact, we receive about 5,000 requests each month
9 for inclusion, and accept less than 1,000 new members.
10 Q Now, 1,000 out of 5,000 would be 20 percent; is that
11 right?
12 A That's correct.
13 Q And that's the day after it was seven percent; is
14 that right?
15 A That's correct.
16 Q Now, if you look at Exhibit 384, what is the date of
17 that pitch sheet?
18 A 12/21/94.
19 Q So, that's the following day; is that correct?
20 A That's correct.
21 Q And look at the third paragraph and read us the last
22 sentence?
23 A As a point of interest only 14 percent of those 24 candidates who apply for inclusion are actually accepted. 25 So please accept our congratulations.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5756 Saffer-direct/White
1 Q That's a day after it was 20 percent, and two days
2 after it was 7 percent; is that correct?
3 A That is correct.
4 Q You can put those aside for a moment.
5 Now, among the customers that you spoke with in
6 your years at
Who's Who Worldwide who wished to purchase a
7 membership, what percentage were accepted?
8 A Approximately 98 percent.
9 Q Was it true that only 7 or 14 or 20 percent were
10 actually accepted?
11 A No. It was not true.
12 Q Based on your years there, was it true that most
13 people were denied membership?
14 A Could you repeat that question.
15 Q Based on your years working at Who's Who Worldwide,
16 was it true that most people were denied membership?
17 A No, that's not true. They didn't wish to purchase
18 the membership.
19 Q Now, if you can go back to the book and look at
20 Exhibit 327.
21 Now, that's what you described to us before as a
22 power statement?
23 A A power statement. 24 Q Could you read power statement number 5. 25 A Actually, Mr. Blank, we are a member-run
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT R
EPORTER
5757 Saffer-direct/White
1 organization. The members set the price, which is very
2 low. This is the reason we are very selective, because
3 anyone -- because everyone wants to become a member.
4 Q Okay.
5 Now, if you can flip to Exhibit 358, and if you
6 can read the first line of the fourth paragraph.
7 A Mr. Blank, when you are a member of Who's Who
8 Worldwide and you are listed in Who's Who Registry, you
9 are in good company, because many of our members are
10 people you have read and heard about everyday, and maybe
11 this membership is not for you.
12 Q You lost me. Maybe I am looking at the wrong thing.
13 (Counsel approaches the witness stand.)
14 A I am sorry, I'm sorry.
15 Q If you look at the fourth paragraph of that exhibit.
16 A Yes.
17 Q And just read us the first line?
18 A Mr. Blank, as you know, Who's Wh
o Worldwide is a
19 member-run organization.
20 Q If you go down to the eighth paragraph, the one that
21 starts with, right now.
22 A Yes.
23 Q Read that for us. 24 A Right now the durations available are: A lifetime 25 membership and a five-year membership.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5758 Saffer-direct/White
1 The lifetime membership is a split billing charge
2 of $490 now, and $97 in December when the registry was
3 released. The five-year membership is only $290 now and
4 $97 in December. This is a one time membership charge,
5 and there are no annual dues or fees. The members
6 themselves formulated this split billing policy.
7 Q If you can look at 386, please.
8 Do you see at the bottom at one point it says get
9 card number and expiration date?
10 A At the bottom?
11 Q Near the bo
ttom of Exhibit 386.
12 A It is folded in half at the bottom. I have to take
13 it out.
14 Q All right, if you take it out of the plastic, do you
15 see where it says get card number and expiration date?
16 A Yes, I do.
17 Q Read us the sentence right above that.
18 A Our established members asked us to bill new members
19 by Visa and Master Card so the billing would be more
20 convenient. Which do you prefer.
21 Q Now you can put that back in the plastic.
22 Look at 360.
23 A Yes. 24 Q Do you see at the bottom near the dotted line it says 25 via established members?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5759 Saffer-direct/White
1 A Yes, I do.
2 Q Would you read that for us.
3 A The established members brought in Visa and Master
4 Card to make billing more convenient for new members.
5 Whi
ch do you prefer Visa or Master Card.
6 Q Now you can put the book aside for a moment.
7 Did you ever hear any discussions with Mr. Gordon
8 regarding the statements in the pitches that Who's Who was
9 a member-run organization?
10 A Yes, I did.
11 Q Can you explain the circumstances under which you
12 heard this?
13 A It was not during a meeting. It was in his office
14 and Mr. Gordon had mentioned Who's Who is a member-run
15 organization. I happened to be a member, so it is a
16 member-run organization. And he was smiling when he said
17 that.
18 Q Now, from your five years working there, who is it
19 that ran Who's Who Worldwide?
20 A Mr. Gordon.
21 Q If you look back in the book at page 347.
22 A Yes.
23 Q Could you read the first paragraph of that for us. 24 A Hello, Mr. Blank. This is, I would say Alan Saffer; 25 I am the ass
ociate director of Who's Who Worldwide. We
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5760 Saffer-direct/White
1 are the publishers of Who's Who of American Business
2 Leaders.
3 Mr. Blank, the board of governors sent you a
4 letter indicating you have been named and confirmed for
5 inclusion in the platinum edition of the Who's Who
6 Registry. We never received your authorization form. I
7 would like to congratulate you and get the additional
8 information now for the editing department.
9 Q Now, in your five years at Who's Who Worldwide, did
10 you ever meet anyone who was a member of the board of
11 governors?
12 A No, not to my knowledge.
13 Q Did you ever observe any meetings of the board of
14 governors?
15 A No. I never observed a meeting of the board of
16 governors.
17 Q Okay.
18 Look at Exhibi
t 381.
19 Look at the fourth paragraph starting with
20 generally.
21 A Yes.
22 Q Read the fourth sentence of that.
23 A Generally our members -- I am sorry, generally our 24 membership committee and listing department approves those 25 individuals who are accomplished business leaders and
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5761 Saffer-direct/White
1 professionals. Inclusion in Who's Who Worldwide offers
2 immediate recognition for those individuals who qualify.
3 Q Now, in your five years at Who's Who Worldwide did
4 you ever meet anyone who was a member of the membership
5 committee?
6 A To the best of my knowledge, no.
7 Q Did you ever observe any meetings of a membership
8 committee?
9 A No.
10 Q All right.
11 Now, can you look at Exhibit 333?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And the paragra
ph numbered four, says, how long in
14 business. Now, what is that a reference to?
15 A This is from an objection sheet. If somebody should
16 ask me how long we have been in business, this is the
17 objection that I would use.
18 Q And what is the answer that you are supposed to give?
19 A Many, many years, long before I got here.
20 Q Now you can put the book aside again.
21 In addition to that written objection sheet did
22 Mr. Gordon ever give you any other instructions about what
23 to say when customers asked you how long Worldwide had 24 been in business? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5762 Saffer-direct/White
1 Q And what did he say?
2 A That you could say, well, at one time I worked for
3 General Motors, to overcome this objection, at one time I
4 worked for General Motors, and I don't know
how long they
5 had been in business. And then go on with the pitch
6 sheet.
7 Q New, during your telephone sales calls, did you ask
8 customers any questions?
9 A Yes, I did.
10 Q Tell us what sort of questions you had asked?
11 A I would ask them their name, whether they used a
12 middle initial in business, any professional designations
13 after the name, such as Esquire, and things like that.
14 Their business address, the name of the company, business
15 address, their location address and geographically where
16 they conduct their business.
17 Q And what was the purpose of these questions?
18 A That was to sound like part of the interview.
19 Q Now, in your five years at the company, were you ever
20 provided with any written qualifications that customers
21 had to meet?
22 A No, not written.
23 Q Were you provided with any written gu
idelines at all 24 regarding how to determine if a customer was qualified? 25 A No.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5763 Saffer-direct/White
1 Q Now, were you ever given any oral instructions
2 regarding customers' qualifications?
3 A Yes.
4 Q All right.
5 What instructions -- first of all, who gave you
6 these instructions?
7 A Mr. Gordon.
8 Q And what instructions were you given?
9 A He mentioned that he didn't want anybody with the --
10 anybody with an "assistant" in a business title. Or he
11 didn't want a school teacher.
12 Q Now, aside from specific industries or -- aside from
13 specific positions or titles that he did not want, did you
14 receive any other instructions?
15 A No.
16 Q Now, how is it that you determined if a customer was
17 qualified?
18 A Mainly by h
is business title.
19 Q Now, did you ever discuss the qualifications of
20 customers with other employees?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Okay.
23 Can you tell us what the substance of those 24 discussions were? 25 A This was mainly during lunch, in the lunchroom. I
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5764 Saffer-direct/White
1 had mentioned a few times that it seems to be
2 qualifications are as follows: If you had a credit card
3 you could become a member. If you are breathing and you
4 had a credit card, you could become a member. It was an
5 actual joke that was around the office.
6 Q Now, did you ever receive any instructions regarding
7 what to do with cards of qualified people who did not want
8 to purchase a membership?
9 A Can you repeat that again?
10 Q Did you ever receive any instructions regarding what
11 you should do with the cards of qualified people who did
12 not want to purchase a membership?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And what instructions did you receive?
15 A To just write NG on the card if they didn't purchase
16 a membership, and put my initials on the card.
17 Q And then, after you did that, what, if anything, did
18 you do with the card?
19 A At the end of the day I would have a group of NG
20 cards with my initials on it. And I was instructed to put
21 it in an NG box marked "NG" at the end of the day.
22 Q Now, in your conversations with customers on the
23 telephone did you ever adjust the level of membership that 24 you offered them based on their business title? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5765 Saffer-direct/White
1 Q Can you explain what you mean?
2 A Well, there were different durat
ions of memberships
3 that had different prices, from high to low. And if I was
4 talking to, say, a manager of a specific company, it could
5 have been a small company, I wouldn't really emphasize a
6 lifetime membership, which is a very expensive membership,
7 because it would be out of his range. So I would hone in
8 on trying to sell him a five year or three-year
9 membership, a less expensive membership.
10 Q Did you ever receive any instructions from Mr. Gordon
11 regarding what level of membership to offer a customer?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And what were you told?
14 A This was, I believe, during a meeting, he had
15 mentioned that presidents of companies, of large companies
16 usually would have a very large salary, like 100,000 or
17 above, or 200,000, so they could afford a lifetime
18 membership. You try to sell them a lifetime membership or
19 a five-year
membership.
20 Whereas, a manager of information services,
21 somebody in the computer industry, would only be making,
22 say, $40,000 a year, so he couldn't really afford a
23 lifetime membership, you know, hone in on a lesser price 24 membership, like a three-year membership. Some of them 25 would take a five-year membership. But most of the times
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5766 Saffer-direct/White
1 their pocketbook would be able to afford a three-year
2 membership, say, or lesser.
3 Q Now, when a salesperson at Who's Who Worldwide made a
4 sale, would they prepare a written document?
5 A Yes.
6 Q What would they prepare?
7 A It was an order sheet, a membership order sheet.
8 Q And on this membership, or this order sheet, where
9 would the salesperson who made the sale indicate that?
10 A That was ind
icated on the top right-hand corner.
11 Q Could you explain what the commission structure was
12 at Who's Who Worldwide.
13 A The commission structure was 12 and a half percent of
14 the sale.
15 Q Were there any occasions when that 12 and a half
16 percent would be split among more than one salesperson?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Can you give us an example of one of those sort of
19 circumstances.
20 A Yes.
21 If somebody else called in and I took a call for
22 another salesperson, say, if I took a call for Scott
23 Michaelson or Sue Mantell, or another salesperson, and I 24 took the call, and I told them I could help them, and if I 25 made that sale I would split the commission with the
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5767 Saffer-direct/White
1 initial salesperson that they wanted to speak to. And I
2 would get
seven and a half percent, and the other
3 salesperson would get five percent.
4 Q Now, did Mr. Gordon ever say anything to you during
5 the time that you were at Who's Who, regarding why it was
6 that customers purchased these memberships?
7 A Yes, because they -- they had egos, and it was like
8 an ego thing for them.
9 Q Did Mr. Gordon ever say anything to you regarding how
10 the benefits related to the decision to purchase a
11 membership?
12 A Yes, he indicated the benefits were just icing on the
13 cake for that particular member to purchase a membership.
14 Q Okay.
15 Let me show you Exhibit 388 for Identification.
16 (Handed to the witness.)
17 Q Do you recognize that?
18 A Yes.
19 Q What is it?
20 A This is the Who's Who Registry of American Business
21 Leaders, the 1991 edition. I believe that's the first
22 edition.
23 Q Is that one of the Who's Who Registries that you sold 24 in the time that you were there? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5768 Saffer-direct/White
1 Q And if you take a look at Defendant's Exhibits Q and
2 P, Defendant's Exhibit Q and Defendant's Exhibit P, are
3 those later editions that were sold at Who's Who
4 Worldwide?
5 (Handed to the witness.)
6 A Yes, they are.
7 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, the government offers
8 Exhibit 388.
9 THE COURT: Any objection?
10 MR. TRABULUS: No.
11 THE COURT: Government's Exhibit 388 in
12 evidence.
13 (Government's Exhibit 388 received in evidence.)
14 Q Mr. Saffer, have you ever heard the term B-Balance?
15 A Yes, I have.
16 Q And what is the B-Balance referring to?
17 A Well, when somebody requested a membership, there was
18 a split billing for a five-year membership it was $290
19 now, at the time they purchased the membership, usually on
20 the credit card. And then the balance of $97 was invoiced
21 to them in December before the registry was published and
22 released. That the -- that's the balance of the
23 membership. B-Balance is the balance of the payment. 24 Q That $97 payment? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5769 Saffer-direct/White
1 Q Now, when was the customer billed for that B-Balance
2 payment in relation to when they purchased the membership?
3 A When they purchased the membership they were billed
4 immediately. And for the B-balance, the $97, they were
5 invoiced in December of that year, right before the
6 registry was released.
7 Q Now, if a customer did not pay the B-Balance, would
8 he or she receive a
directory?
9 A No, they wouldn't.
10 Q Now, did you ever receive any instructions from
11 Mr. Gordon about whether or not you should advise the
12 customers about the B-Balance?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Okay.
15 When did you receive those instructions?
16 A Back in about 1990 it started, during a meeting when
17 Mr. Gordon advised us not to mention the B-Balance of
18 $97.
19 Q And what, if anything, did you say when he said that?
20 A Well, I mentioned that that's misrepresentation, and
21 I don't intend to do it, not to mention the balance of
22 $97.
23 Q What was Mr. Gordon's response? 24 A We had a slight argument back and forth about it. 25 Him insisting that I should, and me insisting that I am
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5770 Saffer-direct/White
1 not going to.
2 Q When you say him
insisting that you should, should
3 what?
4 A Shouldn't mention the balance of $97, I am sorry.
5 Q Well, did you subsequently receive any other
6 instructions from Mr. Gordon regarding that B-Balance?
7 A At a different time, in other words?
8 Q Yes.
9 A He mentioned after that, always mention the B-Balance
10 of $97.
11 Q Now, after the meeting where you had an argument with
12 him, did he ever give any other instructions -- shortly
13 after that did he ever give any other instructions?
14 A Shortly after the meeting?
15 Q Yes.
16 A In reference to the B-Balance you are talking about?
17 Q Yes, yes.
18 A After that meeting, about a week later he had another
19 meeting, where he said to mention the $97 B-Balance.
20 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, may I have one moment?
21 THE COURT: Yes.
22 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in th
e
23 proceedings.) 24 Q Now, Mr. Saffer, at the time that -- during the years 25 that you worked at Who's Who Worldwide, was there a quota
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5771 Saffer-direct/White
1 on the number of sales that salespersons had to make?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Can you tell us approximately what it was?
4 A When I was in the black room in Lake Success, in the
5 Lake Success office, the quota I believe was 15 or 18, one
6 of the two, sales a week that you had to make.
7 Q And was it different -- was it ever different at
8 other times?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Was it -- was the quota the same or different if you
11 were not in the black room?
12 A The people who were not in the black room had a
13 slightly lower quota.
14 Q Now, did you ever receive any instructions from
15 Mr. Gordon regarding what wo
uld happen to a salesperson
16 who would not meet the quota?
17 A If they were in the black room?
18 Q If they were anywhere.
19 A If they did not meet the quota for two weeks in a row
20 they would be fired.
21 Q Now, if you were in the black room and did not meet
22 the quota, what would be the consequences?
23 A Then you would be moved from the black room to the 24 other room, where the other salespeople were. 25 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, I have no further
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5772 Saffer-direct/White
1 questions.
2 THE COURT: All right.
3 Cross-examination.
4
5 CROSS-EXAMINATION
6 BY MR. TRABULUS:
7 Q Good afternoon, Mr. Saffer, I am Norman Trabulus,
8 Mr. Gordon's attorney.
9 A Yes.
10 Q Mr. Saffer, did you ever testify in the grand jury in
11 this case
?
12 A The grand jury?
13 Q Did you ever testify before the grand jury?
14 A No.
15 Q Did you have any meetings prior to your testimony
16 today either with Mr. White, Ms. Scott, or any agents,
17 agents such as Inspector Biegelman, Inspector Pagano, any
18 others?
19 A Yes.
20 Q On how many times did you have such meetings?
21 A I would say approximately ten times.
22 Q During any of those ten meetings did you ever see
23 anybody speaking to you, who was asking you any questions, 24 taking any notes? 25 A Yes. At one of the meetings.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5773 Saffer-cross/Trabulus
1 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, I request production
2 of the notes.
3 THE COURT: Are there any notes?
4 By who? Who took the notes?
5 THE WITNESS: An Inspector Biegelman.
6 THE COURT: Does
Inspector Biegelman have any
7 notes, Mr. White?
8 MR. WHITE: Yes. They were produced to the
9 defendants.
10 MR. TRABULUS: I have them. They were misfiled
11 here. I have them.
12 THE COURT: All right.
13 Q Just one meeting; is that right?
14 A Yes.
15 Q At which there were notes taken?
16 A That's right.
17 Q Now, you testified, did you not that -- withdrawn.
18 You say that Mr. Gordon told you back in 1990
19 that you were not to mention the B-Balance; is that
20 correct?
21 A That's right.
22 Q And you say this was at a meeting; is that correct?
23 A That's right. 24 Q And there were other salespeople there at that point 25 in time?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5774 Saffer-cross/Trabulus
1 A That's correct.
2 Q And you alone spoke up for not mentioning the
3 B-balance; is that right?
4 A Yes, sir.
5 Q And you were an employee who had just been hired by
6 Mr. Gordon; is that correct?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And nobody else besides yourself spoke up for
9 mentioning the B-Balance; is that correct?
10 A That's right.
11 Q And Mr. Gordon is a kind of guy who is known for
12 pretty much taking things under his own control; is that
13 correct?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And when he ran the business during the five years
16 that you were there, he did not come around and solicit
17 advice from salespeople as to how to run the business; is
18 that correct?
19 A Would you repeat that?
20 Q During the time that he ran the business while you
21 were there for five years approximately, is it correct
22 that Mr. Gordon did not -- well, he didn't have a
23 suggestion box, did he? 24 A He did have a sugge
stion box. 25 Q Did he go around and solicit from various salespeople
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5775 Saffer-cross/Trabulus
1 their views on how the business should be run, changes in
2 the business? Did he say that? Would he do that?
3 A Yes, he would.
4 Q And did he -- would he go around during this time
5 period and invite criticism from salespeople?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And would it be fair to say that he would ask
8 salespeople -- is it your testimony that he would ask
9 salespeople to tell him what he was doing was misleading
10 or wrong, and when he heard that, he didn't mind?
11 A Repeat that again?
12 Q Are you saying that salespeople in this -- withdrawn.
13 Are you saying Mr. Gordon was a kind of
14 intimidating kind of personality?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And was he the kind of guy that salespeople wo
uld go
17 up to and say, gee, Mr. Gordon, I think what you are doing
18 is a misrepresentation? Is that the kind of guy he was?
19 A You have to repeat that again.
20 Q Is he the kind of guy a salesperson would feel
21 comfortable going up to him and saying, gee, Mr. Gordon,
22 what you are doing I feel is a misrepresentation?
23 A Yes, he would listen to it. 24 Q Salespeople would feel comfortable in making such an 25 accusation?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5776 Saffer-cross/Trabulus
1 A I am sorry. It would be uncomfortable.
2 Q This happened a lot? Is that your testimony?
3 A No, it didn't happen a lot.
4 Q Now, isn't it correct that all those exhibits in the
5 binder, pitch sheets, every single one of them mentions
6 the B-Balance? Take a look at them.
7 THE COURT: We will not go through each of the
8 pitch sheets. Have you gone through them?
9 MR. TRABULUS: Yes.
10 THE COURT: They mention the B-Balance?
11 MR. TRABULUS: Yes, in one way or another.
12 THE COURT: We accept your word for it.
13 Q Let me ask you this, Mr. Saffer. Before you came up
14 here and testified, you were shown by Mr. White a bunch of
15 pitch sheets, right, exhibits?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And you looked at those exhibits, and you spent maybe
18 ten or fifteen seconds going through them, and you
19 identified them as pitch sheets, pitch sheets used by
20 Who's Who Worldwide during the time that you were there;
21 is that correct?
22 A That's correct.
23 Q And I assume it was not the first time that Mr. White 24 or one of the postal inspectors showed you that set of 25 pitch sheets; is that right?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5777 Saffer-cross/Trabulus
1 A That's correct.
2 Q Otherwise you would have spent a lot more time
3 looking through them to identify them; is that correct?
4 A I have been using these pitch sheets for five years
5 at one time or another.
6 Q Isn't it correct, sir, that not a single one of those
7 pitch sheets fails to mention that there is going to be
8 another payment of $97 or $99 at some later point, either
9 in December or when the registry is released? Not a
10 single one fails to mention that, correct?
11 A Some of the sheets do not mention it, like an
12 objection sheet.
13 MR. TRABULUS: Move to strike.
14 THE COURT: Motion granted, strike the answer as
15 not responsive.
16 Q Mr. Saffer, I am asking you about pitch sheets,
17 right?
18 A Yes.
19 Q The script:
20 Isn't it correct each mentions $97?
21 A Practical
ly all of them.
22 Q Practically all of them or all of them?
23 A All of them. 24 Q That's right, all of them do. 25 Now, the objection sheet, that's not a complete
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5778 Saffer-cross/Trabulus
1 script?
2 A It is part of the script. It is a supplement to the
3 script.
4 Q It is not comprehensive, the objection sheet doesn't
5 list everything that you are supposed to say, right? Is
6 that correct?
7 A They list what you are supposed to say if an
8 objection comes up.
9 Q They don't address the issue of the B-Balance, right?
10 A Not on the objection sheet, no.
11 Q Because that is addressed in the pitch sheet, right?
12 A That's correct.
13 Q Now, is it not correct, sir, that each one of those
14 objection sheets contains something to say, if the
15 pros
pective member asks, how was I selected?
16 A Can you repeat that again?
17 Q Yes.
18 Is it not correct, sir, that each one of the
19 objection sheets contains a response that the salesperson
20 is to use if somebody is speaking to, is asking, how was I
21 selected?
22 A That's on --
23 Q Objection sheet. 24 A An objection sheet. 25 Q And the objection sheet, everyone addresses that; is
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5779 Saffer-cross/Trabulus
1 that correct?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And throughout the period of time when you were
4 working at Who's Who Worldwide, there was an objection
5 sheet in force, and it may have changed from time to time,
6 but that objection sheet always provided something to be
7 said, if somebody you were speaking to on the phone asked,
8 how was I selected; is that correct?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Now, in response, take a look at Exhibit 329 in
11 evidence.
12 Can you read to the members of the jury what that
13 says concerning what is to be said if somebody asks you,
14 how was I selected?
15 A At my level I wouldn't know. However, I can tell you
16 that some individuals are nominated by the established
17 members, and other individuals are submitted to our public
18 affairs office.
19 Q Now, Mr. Saffer, that response does not tell the
20 particular member that is being spoken to, the particular
21 prospective member that is being spoken to, that he or she
22 specifically was nominated by another member; is that
23 correct? 24 A No, it says that some individuals are nominated by 25 established members.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5780 Saffer-cross/Trabulus
1 Q And ot
hers are submitted to the public affairs
2 office; is that correct?
3 A That's what it says.
4 Q And it says that the -- at the level that the person
5 who is speaking speaks, they wouldn't know; is that
6 correct?
7 A Excuse me?
8 Q The person who answers the question says, at my level
9 I wouldn't know; is that correct?
10 A The sales individual you mean?
11 Q The salesman. And that means that that salesman
12 wouldn't know how the particular person he or she was
13 speaking to was selected; is that correct?
14 A Well, they were nominated. They were nominated by
15 established members.
16 Q And other individuals are submitted to our public
17 affairs office; is that correct?
18 A That's what it says.
19 Q So, it leaves open at least two possibilities. One,
20 nominated by established members, and, two, being
21 submitted to our pu
blic affairs office, without saying how
22 that came to be, right?
23 A Correct. 24 Q That particular objection sheet is dated October 25 27th, 1992; is that correct?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5781 Saffer-cross/Trabulus
1 A That's correct.
2 Q And Mr. White asked you, did he not, about a pitch
3 sheet, number 361. Would you turn to that.
4 A I have it.
5 Q And he read to you -- he asked you to read, I
6 believe, or maybe he read to you the following line: You
7 can anonymously nominate up to two qualified individuals
8 annually, much like you were nominated.
9 A Yes. Indicating that you were nominated.
10 Q Now --
11 MR. SCHOER: Objection.
12 MR. TRABULUS: Move to strike.
13 THE COURT: Motion granted. Strike the answer as
14 not responsive. The jury is instructed to disregard it.
15 Q Now --
16 THE COURT: Take it easy, Mr. Trabulus. I am
17 going to give you a chance.
18 Now, Mr. Saffer, you are going to be asked on
19 cross-examination, as is the proper procedure, questions
20 asking for a yes or no answer. Most of the questions are
21 going to call for a yes or no answer because the attorneys
22 are permitted to question you on specific points that he
23 or she wants to do that; you understand that? 24 THE WITNESS: I understand. 25 THE COURT: Now, try to answer yes or no. If you
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5782 Saffer-cross/Trabulus
1 can't, say I can't answer yes or no.
2 THE WITNESS: I understand.
3 THE COURT: Don't make explanations.
4 THE WITNESS: I understand.
5 THE COURT: Don't add these comments that you
6 think may be necessary to fully explain. They may be
7
necessary, but the cross-examiner is entitled to get the
8 specific answer.
9 Now, Mr. White who questioned you originally will
10 have another opportunity to talk to you. If he thinks
11 anything was left out, believe me he will ask you about
12 it.
13 So, just listen to the questions and answer
14 responsively.
15 Of course, if you don't know, or don't remember,
16 freely say so.
17 Do you understand our procedure?
18 THE WITNESS: I understand.
19 THE COURT: Okay.
20 Q Now, that objection sheet that I just read from is
21 dated December 22nd, 1992; isn't -- excuse me, withdrawn.
22 We were talking about Exhibit 361, and it is not
23 an objection sheet, it is a pitch sheet? 24 A That's correct. 25 Q And that is dated December 22nd, 1992; is that
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5783 Saffer-cross/T
rabulus
1 correct?
2 A That's correct.
3 Q Now, I had asked you to read from 329 before. 329 is
4 dated October 27th, 1992; is that correct?
5 A That's correct.
6 Q So, 329 is the objection sheet that was in use at the
7 time that this pitch sheet, dated December 22nd, 1992 was
8 being used; is that correct? As far as you can tell?
9 A The pitch sheet was dated December, 1992.
10 Q Right.
11 And among the objection sheets marked in
12 evidence, which are in front of you in the folder, the
13 latest date is October 27th, 1992, except for pitch
14 sheets -- excuse me, except for objection sheets that are
15 dated after the pitch sheet, December 22nd? So that's the
16 latest edition of the objection sheet prior to the date of
17 this pitch sheet.
18 If you want to verify that, look through the
19 exhibits.
20 A Well, there are oth
er objection sheets dated May of
21 '94.
22 Q That one would not have been in use in December of
23 '92, would it? 24 A No, you are correct. 25 Q And the latest date of objection sheet that could
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5784 Saffer-cross/Trabulus
1 have been in use in December of '92 is October 27th, '92,
2 and that's Exhibit 329; is that right?
3 A That is correct.
4 Q And that's the one -- withdrawn.
5 If in the course of receiving the pitch of a
6 sales presentation 361, December 27, 1992 -- a member -- a
7 customer were to ask, how was I selected, who nominated;
8 would not the response be from the objection sheet, at my
9 level I wouldn't know. However, I can tell you that some
10 individuals are nominated by the established members and
11 other individuals are submitted to our public affairs
12 office; would that have been the response made at that
13 point in time?
14 A That would have been the response.
15 Q In fact, every one of these objection sheets, 329,
16 330, 331, I will not read all the numbers, but all the
17 ones that you identified as objection sheets, isn't not
18 true that a response to the question, how was I selected,
19 they leave open multiple possibilities, one of which is
20 nomination by another member or members, but the other of
21 which involves public affairs, media, things of that sort?
22 A Could you repeat that question, please?
23 Q Sure. Let's break it down. 24 Exhibit 330; is that an objection sheet? 25 A It is.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5785 Saffer-cross/Trabulus
1 Q And that is dated January 29th, 1992?
2 A '92.
3 Q And what does it say that you are sup
posed to say in
4 response to the question, how was I nominated? Read it to
5 the jury, please.
6 A At my level I wouldn't know exactly. However, I can
7 tell you about 30 to 40 percent are nominated by our
8 established members, while they were permitted to nominate
9 up to two qualifying individuals annually.
10 Q Continue?
11 A Shall I go on?
12 And about 40 percent are research. It could be
13 that you were -- that there was an article about your
14 company or yourself in Business Week, Forbes, Fortune, or
15 a trade publication.
16 Q Now, it says that 30 to 40 percent are nominated by
17 established members, right?
18 A That is correct.
19 Q And it says about 40 percent are research, right?
20 A That's what it says.
21 Q And it leaves open another 20 percent that it doesn't
22 talk about, correct? 20 to 30 percent?
23 A That's
right. 24 Q So, there is still a third possibility although it is 25 not specifically addressed, right?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5786 Saffer-cross/Trabulus
1 A Yeah, but --
2 Q Yes, or no, sir?
3 A I don't know if I can answer that yes or no without
4 an explanation.
5 Q Let's turn to 331.
6 Also an objection sheet?
7 A That's an objection sheet.
8 Q In response to how was I selected, it says: At my
9 level, I wouldn't know. However, I can tell you that some
10 individuals are nominated by the established members, and
11 other individuals are submitted to our public affairs
12 office.
13 A That's two ways.
14 Q What?
15 A That's two ways, yes.
16 Q Number -- well, there can be several different ways
17 in which individuals can be submitted to the public
18 affairs off
ice; is that not correct? Yes or no, sir?
19 A That's correct.
20 Q In fact, do you know all the ways in which the public
21 affairs office got the names of potential members, do you
22 know?
23 A No, I don't. 24 Q There was a public affairs office, right? 25 A Yes, there was.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5787 Saffer-cross/Trabulus
1 Q Now, as you sit here today, do you seriously think
2 that it made any difference whatsoever to any prospective
3 member, whether that public affairs officer was called a
4 public affairs office, or board of governors, or
5 membership committee? Do you think those different titles
6 would have made any difference at all, sir? Yes or no?
7 MR. WHITE: Objection.
8 THE COURT: Sustained.
9 Q For how much of the time that you were at Lake
10 Success did you work in the bla
ck room? Were you there
11 all the time or just some of the time?
12 A A good percentage of the time I was in the black
13 room.
14 Q Were there other times that you were not in the black
15 room?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And is it fair to say that you were not one of the
18 very top performers among the salespeople?
19 A One of them.
20 Q You were not?
21 A I was one of the top salespeople. That's why he was
22 in the black room.
23 Q You got 55 -- withdrawn. 24 Is it fair to say that Mr. Gordon liked you? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5788 Saffer-cross/Trabulus
1 Q And perhaps more than the typical salesperson; is
2 that correct? From what you can tell?
3 A I don't know. He liked me. I liked him, too.
4 Q Okay.
5 Were you aware that the people in the black room
6 would receive a higher base salary than the people in the
7 other area?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And do you personally know whether all the nomination
10 ballots that came in were handled by means of giving them
11 out to salespeople? Or do you know if something different
12 was done with some of the nomination ballots? Do you
13 personal know? Yes or no, sir?
14 A You have to repeat that.
15 Q You talked about nomination ballots being distributed
16 to salespeople?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Is that correct?
19 A That's correct.
20 Q And as I understand it, it was a kind of reward for
21 doing well because nomination ballots were particularly
22 good leads; is that correct?
23 A That's correct, they were. 24 Q There was a pretty high percentage of people whose 25 names were on nomination ballots, actually purchasing a
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP,
CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5789 Saffer-cross/Trabulus
1 membership; is that correct?
2 A There was what?
3 Q A higher percentage of people on the nomination
4 ballots purchased a membership once they were contacted?
5 A Yes. It was a very good lead.
6 Q That's what made it a good lead; is that right?
7 A That is correct.
8 Q And these nomination ballots were kind of given out
9 to salespeople to contact directly as kind of almost like
10 a bonus; is that right? An incentive?
11 A An incentive? Yes.
12 Q A reward?
13 A Yes, that's fair enough.
14 Q Do you know if all the nomination ballots were dealt
15 with that way or whether some were done in another way?
16 Yes or no, sir?
17 A You have to repeat that again.
18 Q Do you know if each of the nomination ballots
19 received was handed out to a salesperson? Yes or no?
20 A Can I give you an explanation on that?
21 Q The question is: Do you know one way or another,
22 sir?
23 A Would you please repeat the question one more time. 24 I drew a blank for a second. 25 Q Okay. Feel free, if that ever happens, ask me.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5790 Saffer-cross/Trabulus
1 Do you know one way or the other, whether each
2 and every nomination ballot that came in was distributed
3 to a salesperson to use as a lead?
4 A No, I don't.
5 Q Do you know one way or another whether or not some
6 nomination ballots, the names on some nomination ballots
7 after being telephoned were sent lead cards? Do you know
8 one way or another, sir?
9 A If they were sent lead cards?
10 Q If they -- withdrawn.
11 Do you know if there was a process whereby after
12 a nomination ballot came
in, and the person was called, a
13 lead card and correspondence was sent to that person? Do
14 you know --
15 A No, I don't know.
16 Q If that were so and a lead card came into you --
17 A Yes. A regular lead card.
18 Q -- you wouldn't know whether that lead card reflected
19 a nomination, would you?
20 A I would assume it reflected a nomination because it
21 was a card that was returned.
22 Q What I am saying is this, and perhaps I misphrased my
23 question. 24 If lead cards were sent out after a person was 25 nominated by another member, when that lead card came
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5791 Saffer-cross/Trabulus
1 back, you would not have any -- and it was given to you,
2 you would have no way of knowing whether that lead card
3 came from a person on a mailing list, or a name submitted
4 b
y another member; is that correct?
5 A I would say that's correct, I wouldn't know.
6 Q Now, when you testified that two percent of your
7 leads came from nomination ballots, and 98 percent came
8 from lead cards, you don't know whether among those lead
9 cards were lead cards that resulted from nominations from
10 other members, do you?
11 A I find it to be a confusing question.
12 Q I will try to break it down and ask it again.
13 A Break it down, yes.
14 Q When you said two percent came from nomination
15 ballots --
16 A That I received.
17 Q That you received, correct?
18 A Yes.
19 Q The rest came from lead cards; is that right?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And you don't know what led to those lead cards in
22 each case?
23 A They were sent back into the company requesting a 24 membership. 25 Q And some of them may have been because
the names came
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5792 Saffer-cross/Trabulus
1 from a mailing list, right?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And some of them, you don't know one way or another,
4 could be because a nomination ballot had been sent in --
5 A To the company, yes.
6 Q And then a lead card with correspondence was sent out
7 to the person who was nominated by the other member,
8 correct?
9 A There is a possibility, yes.
10 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, would this be a good
11 time to break?
12 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, we are going to
13 take a ten-minute recess. Please do not discuss the case
14 and keep an open mind. Please recess yourselves.
15 (Whereupon, at this time the jury leaves the
16 courtroom.)
17
18 (Whereupon, a recess is taken.)
19
20
21
22
23
24 25
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5793 Saffer-cross/Trabulus
1 THE CLERK: Jury entering.
2 (Whereupon, the jury at this time entered the
3 courtroom.)
4 THE COURT: Please be seated, members of the
5 jury.
6 I had a very nice experience just before which
7 delayed me.
8 A Justice of the State Supreme Court in Queens
9 County who I knew very well just dropped by because his
10 son is taking the bar examination next door at Hofstra Law
11 School. And it was very nice to renew an acquaintance. I
12 was formerly a State Supreme Court Justice myself, and I
13 tried cases before this particular gentleman as a lawyer.
14 And so, we had a lot of bonds. I am sorry for delaying,
15 his name is Arthur Lonschein. I am sure the lawyers all
16 know him.
17 You may proceed.
18 MR. TRAB
ULUS: Thank you, your Honor.
19
20 CROSS-EXAMINATION (cont'd)
21 BY MR. TRABULUS:
22 Q Mr. Saffer, you told us before that back in 1991 or
23 so, you were given a list, a Dun & Bradstreet list to make 24 telephone calls from? 25 A I said a list, not a Dun & Bradstreet list.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5794 Saffer-cross/Trabulus
1 Q You were given a computer printout?
2 A That's right.
3 Q It was not a Dun & Bradstreet list; is that right?
4 A To the best of my knowledge.
5 Q Were you told that the people you were to call from
6 his list had previously been sent a letter from Who's Who
7 Worldwide; do you recall that?
8 A No, I don't.
9 Q Did you use a pitch sheet in calling these people?
10 A Yes, I did.
11 Q And did you recognize among any of the pitch sheets
12 you reviewed bef
ore coming and testifying today, the same
13 pitch sheet that you used?
14 A I would have to take a closer look.
15 Q I would like you to do that. Try 348; and also look
16 at 347.
17 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the
18 proceedings.)
19 A It could have been one of the pitches I used.
20 Q Those could have been one of the two?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Those two pitch sheets are different from the others,
23 not they, in one important respect; is that right? 24 Let's not make any mystery about it. These two 25 pitch sheets, unlike the others, say we never received a
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5795 Saffer-cross/Trabulus
1 form back from them; is that right? All the others thank
2 the person for sending back the form in the mail, but
3 these don't; is that right?
4 A One mentions that the boar
d of governors sent you a
5 letter indicating you have been nominated and confirmed
6 for inclusion.
7 Q Continue reading that.
8 A I am sorry.
9 In the platinum edition of the Who's Who
10 Registry, we never received your authorization form.
11 Q That's 347, right?
12 A That's 347.
13 Q And 348 has basically the same language --
14 A Saying we never received.
15 Q 348 has basically the same language, but instead of
16 saying board of governors, it says public affairs office?
17 A Yes, that's the difference, yes.
18 Q And all the other pitch sheets, virtually all of
19 them, thank the person for sending back the form; is that
20 correct?
21 A All the others?
22 Q Just about.
23 I want to thank you for sending back the form. 24 A I see it. 25 Basically, less.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPO
RTER
5796 Saffer-cross/Trabulus
1 Q And these were pitch sheets used for potential
2 customers where there was no lead card, right?
3 A That would be correct.
4 Q But they indicate, do they not that, do they not,
5 that there was a preceding mailing?
6 A Repeat that?
7 Q Each is based on the customer having received a
8 preceding mailing; is that right?
9 A That is correct.
10 Q When you were calling people off this list instead of
11 using a lead card, you were not making a cold call, were
12 you?
13 A Yes, I was.
14 Q Weren't you making a call to someone previously
15 solicited by a letter?
16 A Not all the time. I didn't always use these two
17 scripts.
18 Q You are saying there was another script we don't have
19 here for people who were cold calls; is that correct?
20 A Mr. Gordon one time mentioned to me th
at --
21 MR. TRABULUS: Move to strike.
22 THE COURT: Motion granted. Strike out the
23 answer. 24 Listen to the question. Remember -- 25 THE WITNESS: I am sorry.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5797 Saffer-cross/Trabulus
1 THE COURT: That the questions mostly call for a
2 yes or no. When you can't answer yes or no, just say so.
3 When you say that, Mr. Trabulus has to decide what he is
4 going to do. Is he going to ask you, answer in your own
5 way, which is doubtful, or he will just rephrase the
6 question.
7 THE WITNESS: I am sorry.
8 THE COURT: You understand that now?
9 THE WITNESS: I understand.
10 THE COURT: Okay.
11 Q Now, Mr. Saffer, earlier on in your testimony from
12 Mr. White, you were asked how you determined if a customer
13 was qualified, and you said mainly by business title;
is
14 that right?
15 A That's correct.
16 Q So, your yourself went through a process of
17 qualifying customers; is that correct, by title?
18 A That's correct.
19 Q When you found somebody who was not qualified --
20 withdrawn.
21 You were given a bunch of cards; is that correct?
22 A That's correct.
23 Q And you would go through them and qualify them; is 24 that correct? 25 A That is correct.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5798 Saffer-cross/Trabulus
1 Q And you would take cards out which were not
2 qualified; is that right? Yes or no, sir?
3 A Yes.
4 Q And what would you do with those cards?
5 A I returned the card to my manager, Tara Green.
6 Q And she would give you another card?
7 A She would give me another card.
8 Q You would not lose a sales prospect by returning a
9 card which was unqualified; is that right? You would get
10 a new one?
11 A That's right.
12 Q No one discouraged you from returning a card; is that
13 correct?
14 A Correct.
15 MR. TRABULUS: I think the next
16 Defendant's Exhibit would be AQ; is that correct?
17 (Document handed to Mr. White.)
18 Q Mr. Saffer, I am going to show you
19 Defendant's Exhibit AQ for Identification.
20 Take a look at it.
21 (Handed to the witness.)
22 Q I am going to ask you, are you familiar with that
23 particular type of form? 24 A Yes, I am. 25 Q Was that a form used by Who's Who Worldwide at a
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5799 Saffer-cross/Trabulus
1 certain point?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And that was used toward the latter portion; is that
4 right, in 1994, around there? Maybe even lat
er?
5 A Around there, yes.
6 Q Now, this form was a form of lead card, was it?
7 A It was a nomination ballot.
8 Q But it had something to do with the right and the
9 left; is that correct?
10 A That's correct.
11 Q What was the part on the left?
12 A Somebody accepting a nomination for inclusion in
13 Who's Who Worldwide, and his signature.
14 Q Okay.
15 And on the right at the same time that person is
16 given the opportunity to make three nominations; is that
17 correct?
18 A That's correct.
19 Q And on that particular card, indeed three nominations
20 are made; is that correct?
21 A On this particular card, yes.
22 Q Of course, quite frequently these may come back with
23 one nomination or two nominations, or no nominations; is 24 that right? 25 A That is correct.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL
COURT REPORTER
5800 Saffer-cross/Trabulus
1 Q And this card was used a great amount during the time
2 period in 1994; is that correct?
3 A A great amount?
4 Q Right. There were thousands of them, many thousands?
5 A I can't say that. I only saw a few.
6 Q I am not going to mark this as an exhibit,
7 Mr. Saffer, but I would like you to look through this box
8 and tell me if you find a bunch of cards there. Why don't
9 you --
10 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, may I look through the
11 box, too?
12 THE COURT: Sure.
13 MR. TRABULUS: Sure.
14 Your Honor, this box came from the government
15 warehouse, along with six others in the back room there.
16 THE WITNESS: Do you want me to come around
17 there?
18 MR. TRABULUS: Yes, I think that maybe you
19 should.
20 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the
21 proce
edings.)
22 Q Mr. Saffer, just look through this box and tell me if
23 you see this form, among others in there. Look around to 24 see if there is a fair number, if a fair percentage of 25 them are like that.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5801 Saffer-cross/Trabulus
1 A These are lead cards?
2 Q Right. There are different forms in there, right?
3 THE COURT: What is your question, Mr. Trabulus?
4 Q Do you see a fair number of these forms that have
5 nomination ballots in there?
6 A There is a fair number.
7 Q And if I were to tell you that there were six more
8 boxes just like this, would that surprise you?
9 A Yes, it would.
10 THE COURT: You are not going to take the six
11 more boxes out? You say there are six more boxes?
12 MR. TRABULUS: Yes.
13 THE COURT: We accept your word for it.
14 M
R. TRABULUS: Thank you.
15 Your Honor, I would offer AQ in evidence.
16 THE COURT: Any objection?
17 MR. WHITE: No. But I would like to ask
18 Mr. Saffer a few questions about it.
19 THE COURT: Sure.
20 MR. TRABULUS: I am leaving it with him.
21
22
23 24 25
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5802 Saffer-cross/Trabulus
1 VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. WHITE:
3 Q On Defendant's Exhibit AQ, the guy -- the person who
4 filled out the left side of the card --
5 A Yes.
6 Q Did they get a mailing? What is your understanding,
7 did they get a mailing?
8 A I assume they would have gotten a mailing.
9 Q And as Mr. Trabulus asked you, that person is asked,
10 if they want to give other nominations, and they list
11 those on the right side; is that right?
12 A Th
at is right.
13 Q At the time that person is asked to do that, they are
14 not even a member, right?
15 A That's correct.
16 Q So, the nominator in this case is just some guy off a
17 mailing list; is that right?
18 A That would be correct.
19 Q And you know less about the guy on the right than you
20 do on the left; is that right?
21 A That's right.
22 MR. TRABULUS: Objection, beyond the scope of the
23 voir dire. 24 THE COURT: Yes, strike out the answer. 25 MR. WHITE: No objection.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5803 Saffer-cross/Trabulus
1 THE COURT: Defendant's Exhibit AQ, Abel Queen in
2 evidence.
3 (Defendant's Exhibit AQ received in evidence.)
4
5 CROSS-EXAMINATION (cont'd)
6 BY MR. TRABULUS:
7 Q Let's go back to this ballot.
8 THE COURT: This ballot meaning
AQ?
9 MR. TRABULUS: AQ.
10 Q Now, when such things were received, was the person
11 whose name was listed on the left called up?
12 A No.
13 Q When you got this, would you call up --
14 A The person on the right.
15 Q Is that because the person on the left was not a
16 member and you were not soliciting them?
17 A I wasn't sure.
18 Q Okay, thank you.
19 Just to make it clear for the jury, you would
20 just call up the people being nominated; is that right?
21 A That is correct.
22 Q Now, how much did you make a year while you were at
23 Who's Who Worldwide? 24 A A year -- 25 Q About 38, 40,000 dollars?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5804 Saffer-cross/Trabulus
1 A It would average about $37,000 a year.
2 Q And you were aware other salespeople were making
3 considerably more
than that?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And that's because they were producing considerably
6 more than you were; is that correct?
7 A Yes, it is.
8 Q They would be given as an award or incentive for
9 that, more nomination ballots than you would be; is that
10 right?
11 A They would if on that particular day they had more
12 sales than I did.
13 Q Well, if those particular days averaged out over the
14 course of the year that they made substantially more than
15 you did, is it fair to say they were given substantially
16 more nomination ballots to call over the course of the
17 year?
18 A Yes, that's correct.
19 Q Now, when you sold over the phone, would you say that
20 you used high pressure?
21 A Me personally? No.
22 Q You personally.
23 A No. I was not a high pressure sales individual. I 24 didn't consider myself to be. 25 Q
And nobody asked you to use high pressure, did they?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5805 Saffer-cross/Trabulus
1 A No.
2 Q Now, when you were interviewed by Biegelman, I think
3 you indicated to him that there were pitch sheets that
4 mentioned conferences in Vietnam or Hong Kong; is that
5 correct?
6 A Yes.
7 Q But those pitch sheets were dated before the
8 conferences were supposed to happen, correct?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And after the term, when the conferences were
11 cancelled, Mr. Gordon told you that, correct?
12 A Yes, he did.
13 Q And you did not yourself like to mislead people on
14 telephone about those conferences, correct?
15 A That's correct.
16 Q Now, are you aware, sir, that several people who are
17 confidential informants called Who's Who Worldwide and
18 spoke to you posing as p
rospective members?
19 A I was not aware of that fact.
20 Q Has the government ever played any tapes for you with
21 your voice on it? Yes or no, sir.
22 A Yes.
23 Q And did you hear yourself giving a sales pitch to 24 somebody? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5806 Saffer-cross/Trabulus
1 Q When was the most recent time that you did that?
2 A That I heard the tape?
3 Q Yes.
4 A Last week.
5 Q Now, did you hear a tape in which somebody posed as
6 Andy Capo, C A P O, I believe? Do you recall that?
7 A I don't recall.
8 Q Do you recall on that tape whether you recall the
9 name or not, that that person told you that they had
10 previously spoken to Walda, W A L D A, Sue Mantell?
11 A I don't remember that.
12 Q And Sue Mantell is another salesperson there; is that
13
correct?
14 A Yes, she was.
15 Q Do you recall that that particular person who spoke
16 to you on the tape got you to say that one of the
17 conferences happened by kind of putting you in the
18 position to say that it either did, or to say that Walda
19 Sue Mantell misled that person? Do you recall that?
20 A Repeat that again, please.
21 Q Yes.
22 Do you recall to say that this person who called
23 you managed to get you to say that one of these 24 conferences happened by putting in you the position to say 25 yes, it did, or else telling you another salesperson,
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5807 Saffer-cross/Trabulus
1 Walda Sue Mantell misled him and was wrong; do you recall
2 that?
3 A I don't recall that.
4 MR. TRABULUS: I would like to call tape number 4
5 SW 33. I guess we can call it GB.
6 We have no conference for this one.
7 THE COURT: Are you offering it in evidence?
8 MR. TRABULUS: Yes, under stipulation it will
9 come in.
10 THE COURT: What is the number or what is the
11 letter?
12 MR. TRABULUS: GB.
13 THE COURT: George Baker?
14 MR. TRABULUS: Yes.
15 THE COURT: Any objection?
16 MR. WHITE: No, your Honor.
17 THE COURT: Defendant's Exhibit GB, George Baker
18 in evidence.
19 (Defendant's Exhibit GB received in evidence.)
20 MR. WHITE: Do you want me to play it?
21 MR. TRABULUS: Yes, thank you, Mr. White.
22 (Tape is played.)
23 MR. TRABULUS: You can stop it at this point, 24 Mr. White. 25 Q You asked Mr. Capo, whose real name is Watstein or
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5808 Saffer-cross/Trabulus
1 West, you asked Mr. Capo, if Sue had previous
ly qualified
2 him; is that correct? Not qualified but --
3 A Went over the information.
4 Q Reviewed him for the listing; is that correct?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And based on that you assumed he had already past
7 muster; is that correct? She had qualified him?
8 A That's right.
9 Q And based upon the fact, the circumstances that he
10 gave in terms of, that he had spoken to Sue, you assumed
11 he had originally received some kind of communication from
12 Who's Who Worldwide; is that right?
13 A That's correct.
14 Q And responded to that; is that correct?
15 A That's correct.
16 Q So, whatever selection process had gone into that
17 communication had already happened, right?
18 A That is correct.
19 Q Did you mention before that you had been told at some
20 point by Mr. Gordon that you weren't supposed to take
21 teachers?
22 A Yes,
I did.
23 Q And did you also mention you were not to take people 24 in the Postal Service? Is that another category? 25 A No, I didn't say that.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5809 Saffer-cross/Trabulus
1 Q What was the other one?
2 A Anybody who had the title of "assistant" or the word
3 "assistant" in their business title.
4 Q All right, fair enough.
5 You assumed this man was qualified based on what
6 he was telling you; is that right?
7 A That's correct.
8 Q And if in fact he hadn't spoken to Sue and she had
9 not gone over the information with you -- with him, his
10 deceiving you to the effect that she had led you to
11 believe that he had already been qualified, right?
12 A That's correct.
13 Q Now, Sue, of course, was another salesperson, right?
14 A Mantell, yes.
15 Q And she was s
omebody, she was a co-worker; is that
16 right?
17 A That is correct.
18 Q And when he first mentioned a seminar or conference,
19 you said you had one that had been cancelled, right?
20 A That is correct.
21 Q And that's when he mentioned Vietnam and Hong Kong?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And you truthfully told him that it had been 24 cancelled, right? That's the one that had been cancelled? 25 A He mentioned Vietnam and one in South Carolina,
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5810 Saffer-cross/Trabulus
1 County Hilton Head.
2 Q First he mentioned Vietnam and Hong Kong; is that
3 right?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And you told him it was cancelled; is that right?
6 A I told him that's the one I was talking about.
7 Q And that's what you were supposed to do, tell him it
8 was cancelled?
9 A Yes.
10 Q An
d that's what Mr. Gordon told you you were supposed
11 to do; is that right?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And he also told you that you were supposed to say
14 that the one in Hilton Head was cancelled, too; is that
15 right?
16 A That is correct.
17 Q And this man then pressed you, because he led you to
18 believe that Sue Mantell told him about some kind of great
19 conference; is that right?
20 A That's correct.
21 Q And he put you in the position of either saying that
22 Sue Mantell, another salesperson from your business was
23 dead wrong and misled him, or else, telling him, yes, 24 there was a conference in Hilton Head, right? He put you 25 in that position, right?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5811 Saffer-cross/Trabulus
1 A Could you repeat that again, please?
2 Q Yes.
3 When this guy did that, i
t was Mr. West or
4 Watstein, he put you in a position, so you either had to
5 tell him, no, there was no conference at Hilton Head, Sue
6 Mantell was lying to him or was wrong, or else you had to
7 tell a little fib yourself and say, yeah, it was good, it
8 was local; right?
9 A That's correct.
10 Q Now, do you know that Mr. West, Watstein, was working
11 for the United States Government at the time he did that,
12 when he was posing as Andy Capo?
13 A No, I didn't know.
14 Q Now, when you decided that you were going to plead
15 guilty to this mail fraud charge, had your lawyer played
16 that tape for you or told you about it?
17 A No.
18 Q Did he tell you that there was evidence that you had
19 said something about a conference that didn't happen?
20 A My attorney?
21 Q Yes. Did you understand that? Did somebody say that
22 to you?
23 A I don't recall. 24 Q Did they explain to you that the government itself 25 through one of its own informants had put you in the
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5812 Saffer-cross/Trabulus
1 position where to either protect your company or another
2 salesperson, you were made to tell a lie that you wouldn't
3 have told otherwise?
4 MR. WHITE: Objection.
5 THE COURT: Sustained.
6 Q Now, Mr. Saffer, you told us that there were some
7 times that you were given a computer printout of names to
8 call, and I believe you mentioned that earlier today; is
9 that right?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And, Mr. Saffer, there were -- there was a time later
12 that you were given a printout of member names to call to
13 upgrade?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Did you call to encourage members to upgrade for a
16 longer period of tim
e?
17 A Yes, I did.
18 Q Is it fair to say that quite a few members did that?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And these were members who had been members for a
21 period of time; is that correct?
22 A That is correct.
23 Q Two years, three years, whatever? 24 A That's correct. 25 Q And they spoke to you, and they obviously were
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5813 Saffer-cross/Trabulus
1 satisfied enough to continue their membership; is that
2 correct? Extend it?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Now, in talking to these members -- withdrawn.
5 Did you from time to time in your work have
6 occasion to talk to people who had already been members,
7 even aside from upgrades, people who had joined, did they
8 talk to you again sometimes?
9 A Sometimes they would.
10 Q And would they call and talk to you about the
1
1 benefits they had received?
12 MR. WHITE: Objection.
13 THE COURT: Overruled.
14 Q Would they, sir?
15 A Well, I had cause to talk to members who would call
16 in and ask me questions. Sometimes it was a complaint.
17 Sometimes their listening was wrong. Sometimes they
18 wanted to change in a listing, because they got a
19 promotion; and sometimes because they didn't receive the
20 registry.
21 Q And those you would refer to someone else; is that
22 correct? Because that would not be your department; is
23 that correct? 24 A Well, I would try to settle it. 25 Q The people who wanted to change their listing because
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5814 Saffer-cross/Trabulus
1 they got a promotion, those people were certainly not
2 calling in for a complaint; is that correct?
3 A That's right.
4 Q And is it fair to say quite a few of the people you
5 spoke to, including the people with the upgrades,
6 expressed happiness with Who's Who Worldwide?
7 A That I really couldn't tell.
8 Q Did they talk to you about Tribute Magazine?
9 A Occasionally.
10 Q Did they say they liked it?
11 A If the subject came up about Tribute, yes, they would
12 say, a few, that they liked it.
13 Q Would they say that they liked the plaque that they
14 got?
15 A Some liked it and some didn't.
16 Q And that would be an individual idiosyncracy, as to
17 whether they liked it or not; is that correct?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Nobody told you that the plaque was entirely
20 different from what you described it to them; is that
21 right?
22 A No, nobody mentioned that.
23 Q And, in fact, your description of it was accurate; is 24 that right? 25 A That
is correct.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5815 Saffer-cross/Trabulus
1 Q Now, would the members sometimes talk to you about
2 the CD-ROM and you would speak to them?
3 A There was reference to the CD-ROM.
4 Q And did you sometimes sell members a CD-ROM?
5 A Yes, I did.
6 Q Did you ever get feedback from the members you sold
7 about the CD-ROM?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Is it fair to say some of them liked it?
10 A One in particular, one person I spoke to did say that
11 he had made some pretty good business contacts using the
12 CD-ROM, one person.
13 Q And did -- I assume you would occasionally get
14 somebody who said they had a problem setting it up? Did
15 that happen sometime?
16 A Not really.
17 Q Nobody really complained about it; is that right?
18 A That's correct.
19 Q In fact, whatev
er feedback you got about the CD-ROM
20 was favorable, to the extent you got any; is that right?
21 A On the CD-ROM, that's correct.
22 Q I would like to go back to -- Mr. Gordon and the
23 other managers -- Mr. Gordon wasn't the manager, but the 24 managers they would consistently tell you and other sales 25 people to stick to the pitch; is that correct?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5816 Saffer-cross/Trabulus
1 A That is correct.
2 Q Indeed, Mr. Gordon would sometimes say if you lie you
3 are out of here, right?
4 A Yes.
5 Q He would say stick to the pitch, that way you can't
6 get into trouble, or words to that effect; is that right?
7 A That is correct.
8 Q Now, the pitch also would include in this sense the
9 objection sheet, right?
10 A That's correct.
11 Q And the objection sheets that would
say, for example,
12 in response to how was I selected, to paraphrase it,
13 either members could nominate other members, or, and it
14 would list another source or sources, public affairs or
15 whatever, right?
16 A On some of the objection sheets.
17 Q None of the objection sheets ever said you, meaning
18 the prospective member, were nominated by another member?
19 None of them ever said that, right, leaving no other
20 alternative?
21 A One of them did.
22 Q Can you point to one, an objection sheet that says
23 that? 24 A Can I look through it? 25 Q Yes, sure.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5817 Saffer-cross/Trabulus
1 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the
2 proceedings.)
3 A Excuse me, it was on a pitch sheet I was looking for.
4 Q That's what Mr. White had you read; is that
correct?
5 One of the ones he had you read, just like you were
6 nominated, or something like that?
7 A That's correct. That's what I am referring to.
8 Q It said you could nominate somebody just like you
9 were nominated?
10 A Just like you were nominated.
11 Q But it didn't say another member had nominated that
12 person?
13 A That's what you are insinuating.
14 Q If the person asked further about it they would hear
15 the objection sheet which would list several different
16 ways of being nominated; is that correct?
17 A They --
18 Q They were supposed to; is that right?
19 A That is correct.
20 Q And to those particular members to whom it was
21 important, they would pursue it further, and they would
22 hear the objection sheet; is that right?
23 A That is correct. 24 Q Incidentally, of -- do you recall as you sit here
25 today what percentage of the people you spoke to asked you
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5818 Saffer-cross/Trabulus
1 how they were nominated or selected? If you can't, you
2 can't, but do you have an idea?
3 A I mean, it did come up.
4 Q It came up from time to time; is that right?
5 A From time to time it came up, yes.
6 Q It wasn't something everybody asked, far from it?
7 A That's correct, not everybody asked.
8 Q By the way, with regard to Sue Mantell, you know she
9 was fired for lying; is that correct?
10 A Do I know she was -- no, I don't know if she was
11 fired for lying.
12 Q You know she was fired and begged for her job back
13 and was given it?
14 A Your attention I don't recall.
15 Q All right.
16 Did you enjoy your work at Who's Who Worldwide?
17 A Yes, I did.
18 Q You li
ked it there, right?
19 A Yes.
20 Q It was one of the better jobs you had, right?
21 A I wouldn't say that.
22 Q More satisfying?
23 A It was fun. 24 MR. TRABULUS: Okay, let's play the rest of that 25 tape, which is GB.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5819 Saffer-cross/Trabulus
1 (Tape is played.)
2 Q Now, when you said that you didn't know anything
3 about the internal financial affairs of the company, that
4 was true, wasn't it?
5 A That was true.
6 Q When you said it was the largest Who's Who membership
7 organization in the world, membership organization, as far
8 as you knew that was true, right?
9 A As far as I knew it was true.
10 Q In fact, you had no reason to believe, you have no
11 reason to believe now it wasn't true, in terms of a
12 membership organization?
13
A No, I don't.
14 Q And in terms of indicating the amount of time that
15 the company had been in business and you had been working
16 there the five years, that was true?
17 A That was true, sure.
18 Q And on this particular tape, this particular man,
19 supposedly Mr. Capo, he didn't ask you how he was
20 nominated, right?
21 A No.
22 Q But on other tape recordings that you heard, when you
23 were asked, how was I nominated, you said it was by 24 another member, right? 25 A That he was nominated, yes, by another member.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5820 Saffer-cross/Trabulus
1 Q In doing that you deviated from the objection sheet;
2 is that right? Yes or no, sir?
3 A I don't know if I can answer it with a yes or no
4 question -- answer.
5 Q You didn't quote the language of the objection sheet
6 when you responded to that, did you?
7 A I find it difficult to answer that question yes or no
8 without an explanation of showing you where it mentions
9 nomination in some of the sales pitches.
10 Q Well, the sales pitches that you were delivering on
11 those -- withdrawn.
12 When you were asked, how was I nominated --
13 A Yes.
14 Q -- you made up your own answer that was different
15 from the objection sheet, did you not?
16 A Sometimes I did, yes.
17 Q And, in fact, you heard tape recordings perhaps
18 during the past week or more than that, where you were
19 asked that question, and you said something which was
20 different from the objection sheet, right?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Your answer didn't leave open the possibility that
23 there was another source for the nomination other than 24 another member? You told the person, you have been
25 nominated by another member, right?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5821 Saffer-cross/Trabulus
1 A You are referring to the tape?
2 Q Yes.
3 A That particular one? Which tape are you referring
4 to?
5 Q Did you hear any tape at all -- withdrawn.
6 How many tapes did you hear of you being -- you
7 interviewing a prospective member?
8 A Well, one obviously just now.
9 Q Just now. Four others?
10 A Two or three others.
11 Q Okay.
12 You understand now that those tapes were made by
13 somebody working for the government, posing as a potential
14 customer; is that right?
15 A That's correct.
16 Q In each one of those tapes when you were asked, how
17 was I nominated, you gave an answer that was different
18 from the objection sheet; is that right?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And you ma
de that change yourself, right?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Mr. Gordon had always told to you stick to the pitch
23 and stick to the objection sheet, and you didn't, right? 24 A He did mention -- yes. 25 Q Now, on that tape we just heard, that man West, or
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5822 Saffer-cross/Trabulus
1 Watstein, he made a pretty disparaging remark about postal
2 carriers; is that right?
3 A Yes.
4 Q It was completely uncalled for, except he was trying
5 to get you to say something to give him -- to create some
6 basis where you could be criticized for offering him a
7 membership, right?
8 MR. WHITE: Objection.
9 THE COURT: Sustained.
10 Q New, Mr. Saffer, I think you indicated that the only
11 thing that -- withdrawn.
12 I think you indicated that Mr. Gordon told you
13 that you were not sup
posed to take people with the title
14 "assistant" in their name, and you weren't supposed to
15 take teachers; is that right?
16 A That's right.
17 Q He didn't tell you to change the title from
18 "assistant" to anything else, did he?
19 A No.
20 Q In fact, are you aware that there are quite a few
21 people with "assistant" in their title within the
22 registry?
23 A Yes, I am aware of it. 24 Q Did he ever tell you anything else besides that about 25 who he wanted in there and who he didn't want in there?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5823 Saffer-cross/Trabulus
1 A Well, only that they shouldn't have the word
2 "assistant" in their business title, and he didn't want
3 school teachers, as I recall.
4 Q Do you recall him ever saying he didn't want the
5 manager of an individual K-Mart, he wanted the
regional
6 manager of K-Mart?
7 A He did say that.
8 Q And you could return the card and get another card?
9 A Yes, that's correct.
10 Q Did he also say that he was very anxious that the
11 information that people got -- that salespeople got
12 concerning the type of business that people were in and
13 the geographic area that they serviced be accurate. Do
14 you recall that?
15 A Yes, I do.
16 Q And did he explain if it wasn't accurate it would
17 impair the utility of the CD-ROM; is that right?
18 A I don't recall him saying that.
19 Q He wanted it to be accurate because members were
20 going to use it, and he didn't want them using something
21 that was inaccurate; is that right?
22 A That's true.
23 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, I would like to begin 24 playing another tape. 25 THE COURT: How long is this tape going to take?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5824 Saffer-cross/Trabulus
1 MR. TRABULUS: It is probably between the
2 portions of it that we are going to play, it is probably
3 going to take the balance of the day, because I understand
4 we are breaking up at 4:45.
5 THE COURT: How long is the tape going to take?
6 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, I don't have a
7 transcript. I have it queued to the place we are going to
8 begin. I am not sure how long it is going to end. I
9 believe it is going to be more than 20 minutes.
10 THE COURT: It is going to be more?
11 MR. TRABULUS: Yes.
12 THE COURT: Then I will not take it now. We will
13 recess early today so that the juror who has to get
14 somewhere can get there without rushing.
15 Members of the jury, despite my predilection for
16 working right to the last minute, I am going to depart
17 from accepted practice because I am told that federal
18 judges should be flexible and open-minded. Although I
19 find it difficult to be so, I am going to try.
20 So, we will recess now until tomorrow morning at
21 9:30.
22 In the meantime, please do not discuss the case
23 either among yourselves or anyone else. Keep an open 24 mind. Have a nice evening and we will see you tomorrow 25 morning.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5825 Saffer-cross/Trabulus
1 Please recess yourselves.
2 (Whereupon, at this time the jury leaves the
3 courtroom.)
4 THE COURT: Mr. Saffer, you will have to be here
5 before 9:30 morning.
6 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
7 THE COURT: Ready to resume testifying.
8 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
9 THE COURT: You can leave the courtroom.
10 THE WITNESS: This --
11 THE COURT: Just leave that where it is.
12 You don't have to leave the courthouse. Just
13 leave the courtroom.
14 THE COURT: What is on for tomorrow, Mr. White?
15 MR. WHITE: I assume they will be a while with
16 Mr. Saffer, and we will also have Mr. Simmen tomorrow,
17 S I M M E N.
18 THE COURT: All right.
19 MR. WHITE: One thing with respect to yesterday,
20 about whether or not we have additional transcripts of the
21 tapes.
22 We have no other final transcripts. The ones
23 that I gave to the defendants prior to trial were draft 24 transcripts. I made them available to them pursuant to a 25 stipulation that everyone signed that it wouldn't be used
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5826 Saffer-cross/Trabulus
1 to cross-examine a witness, and it wouldn't be used at the
2 trial. It was just for the
m, to assist them in reviewing
3 the tapes.
4 I am assuming that the primary reason that they
5 are asking is, for example, if we had a transcript now
6 they could use it to cross-examine Mr. Saffer, for
7 example.
8 That presents a bit of a problem because we have
9 some sort of drafts, first drafts of transcripts that I
10 can look at and see are quite obviously wrong. In other
11 words, they are attributing things to one person that are
12 really being said by another.
13 So, I am not sure that giving draft transcripts
14 is going to simplify anything. In fact it will make it
15 more complicated.
16 THE COURT: The drafts are not accurate?
17 MR. WHITE: The couple I reviewed last night are
18 affirmatively not accurate. I have not reviewed all the
19 additional ones. That's why they were drafts and not
20 final. They were prepared by people who did
n't know
21 anything about the case. So I am at a loss I guess to
22 figure out what your Honor wants me to do.
23 THE COURT: We certainly don't want inaccurate 24 transcripts. That's not going to help any. 25 MR. WHITE: That's right.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5827 Saffer-cross/Trabulus
1 THE COURT: If you have any accurate transcripts,
2 although I am at a loss to understand why transcripts
3 would be inaccurate. What made these transcripts accurate
4 and the others inaccurate?
5 MR. WHITE: Because the ones that we have started
6 out as drafts, and me, or Inspector Pagano, or someone
7 else sat there with the same and sat there with the
8 transcript and corrected it, and the witnesses who made
9 them, like Mr. West did as well. The remaining ones we
10 have were prepared by transcribers at the postal inspector
11 services who know nothing about the case, don't know the
12 names, the places --
13 THE COURT: If they are inaccurate, they will
14 certainly not be useful.
15 MR. TRABULUS: May I say, that nobody wants an
16 inaccurate transcript. But if the inaccurate transcripts
17 are handed over to us, and if the inaccuracies are an
18 attribution, the name of the person, that can probably be
19 corrected easily.
20 That's the type of area where the first drafts of
21 transcripts have errors, and if the case is that the text
22 is good, as the drafts originally given to us, maybe it is
23 usable. 24 MR. WHITE: It runs the risk, your Honor, of 25 confusing the witness. It says there that you said that,
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5828 Saffer-cross/Trabulus
1 and you didn't --
2 THE COURT: The thing it will d
o is prolong the
3 trial. Because as soon as you start with the transcripts,
4 and the government says that they are not accurate, and
5 then I have to have a hearing as to whether they are
6 accurate or not.
7 MR. TRABULUS: I would not want to get into
8 that. But I am saying if there is some that the
9 attributions is incorrect, we can correct it, show it to
10 the government and maybe they will consent it is usable,
11 if perhaps not perfect.
12 MR. WHITE: The fast review I did, that is not
13 only problem.
14 THE COURT: If they are totally inaccurate, you
15 do not need to turn it over. It will only cause more
16 problems and lengthen the trial and not help them at all.
17 Are there none that are accurate? You said you
18 didn't look at all of them.
19 MR. WHITE: I didn't look at all of them. I took
20 a quick look --
21 THE COURT: Take
a look at the rest of them.
22 MR. WHITE: All right.
23 THE COURT: See you tomorrow at 9:30. 24 MR. SCHOER: May I be heard with respect to one 25 other issue?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5829 Saffer-cross/Trabulus
1 THE COURT: Yes.
2 MR. SCHOER: I don't believe we received all the
3 3500 material with respect to this witness. Particularly,
4 I asked several times today for the investigative history
5 file, personal history data form which was prepared by the
6 postal authorities on the date this witness was arrested.
7 I don't know whether or not he made a statement on that
8 day, as many of the people -- many of the defendants did.
9 We have copies of things that relate to the defendant with
10 respect to the date of arrest, but nothing relating to
11 this witness with respect to the date that he was
12 a
rrested.
13 THE COURT: I assume that Mr. White turned over
14 everything. Why do you believe he did not? What evidence
15 do you have to make a statement like that?
16 MR. SCHOER: Judge, I don't have it. I asked
17 co-counsel if they ever received it.
18 THE COURT: Maybe there is none.
19 MR. SCHOER: I assume he was arrested, there must
20 be at least his personal history data.
21 THE COURT: Is there a personal history data for
22 Mr. Saffer.
23 MR. WHITE: I believe there is that form, your 24 Honor, which I thought I provided to the defense. I told 25 Mr. Schoer today the two times he asked me for it --
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5830 Saffer-cross/Trabulus
1 THE COURT: That's not enough. You have to say
2 it three or four times. And he is doing a job.
3 MR. SCHOER: I want it on the record, that's all.
4 THE COURT: I have great regard for Mr. Schoer's
5 insistency, his pugnacity. It is never ending. However,
6 he is doing a job for his client, which I suspect he
7 should.
8 Do you have such a form?
9 MR. WHITE: The answer is I believe I have it. I
10 believe I gave it to the defense. I will check again and
11 I will give him another copy.
12 THE COURT: Do you have it here?
13 MR. WHITE: I don't think I have it here, but I
14 will look. I think it is back -- I think I gave it to the
15 defense, but I will look again and give him another copy.
16 THE COURT: Okay.
17 Please try to find it and give him another copy
18 before tomorrow morning at 9:30.
19 MR. WHITE: I will.
20 THE COURT: Okay.
21 What else, Mr. Schoer?
22 MR. SCHOER: There was something else, Judge, but
23 I just lost it. 24 THE COURT: You will come back with it
very 25 shortly.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5831 Saffer-cross/Trabulus
1 MR. SCHOER: Thank you.
2 THE COURT: Anything else?
3 Tomorrow morning at 9:30.
4 MR. SCHOER: I know what it is.
5 THE COURT: My faith in you is restored.
6 MR. SCHOER: Mr. White was going to find out,
7 your Honor, as to whether or not there were transcripts
8 concerning what we have called the Oxford tapes that were
9 given to us last week, and also other supporting documents
10 relating to those tapes, for example, the resumes that
11 were handed over to Mr. West, so we could attempt to track
12 down those people and their names and addresses.
13 MR. WHITE: Right. That's in the file that has
14 been requested from closed files. I have not had a chance
15 to check if we got it today. If it is there we will know
16 today.
17 THE COURT: And you will know Mr. Schoer about
18 it?
19 MR. SCHOER: Thank you.
20 THE COURT: Anything else?
21 MR. SCHOER: No.
22 THE COURT: Yes, Mr. Wallenstein.
23 MR. WALLENSTEIN: Mr. Reffsin lost his mother 24 recently, and he is requesting to be able to leave about a 25 half an hour early tomorrow afternoon. He needs to take
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5832 Saffer-cross/Trabulus
1 care of personal matters with his brothers. This does not
2 pertain to him. And I will be here in any event.
3 THE COURT: Does Mr. Reffsin know it is in his
4 best interest to be here at all times?
5 THE DEFENDANT REFFSIN: Yes, your Honor.
6 THE COURT: Does he know that by leaving the jury
7 would get the wrong impression about him?
8 THE DEFENDANT REFFSIN: I hope not for a over
9 hour. I have to take the
risk.
10 THE COURT: I am saying he might. Does he
11 understand that?
12 THE DEFENDANT REFFSIN: I understand, your Honor.
13 THE COURT: He wishes to leave any how?
14 THE DEFENDANT REFFSIN: I understand.
15 THE COURT: He is then excused.
16 You will be here, Mr. Wallenstein?
17 MR. WALLENSTEIN: I will be here.
18 THE COURT: All right.
19 (Case on trial adjourned until 9:30 o'clock a.m.,
20 Thursday, February 26, 1998.)
21
22
23 24 25
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5833
1 I-N-D-E-X
2 W-I-T-N-E-S-S-E-S 3 PAGE LINE 4 T H O M A S R. S K O N I E............... 5622 1 DIRECT EXAMINATION............................... 5622 12 5 CROSS-EXAMINATION................................ 5632 15 CROSS-EXAMINATION................................ 5643 22 6 CROSS-EXAMINATION.....
........................... 5648 5 CROSS-EXAMINATION................................ 5655 14 7 CROSS-EXAMINATION................................ 5661 7 CROSS-EXAMINATION................................ 5666 1 8 CROSS-EXAMINATION................................ 5669 13 REDIRECT EXAMINATION............................. 5674 18 9 RECROSS-EXAMINATION.............................. 5687 21 RECROSS-EXAMINATION.............................. 5701 3 10 FURTHER RECROSS EXAMINATION...................... 5702 17 FURTHER RECROSS-EXAMINATION...................... 5705 11 11 FURTHER RECROSS-EXAMINATION...................... 5706 11
12 A L A N S A F F E R.......................... 5712 15 DIRECT EXAMINATION............................... 5713 4 13 CROSS-EXAMINATION................................ 5772 5 CROSS-EXAMINATION (cont'd)....................... 5793 20 14 VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION............................ 5802 1 CROSS-EXAMINATION (cont'd).............
.......... 5803 5 15
16 E-X-H-I-B-I-T-S
17 Government's Exhibit 67-B received in evidence... 5629 25 18 Government's Exhibits 327 through 333 received in evidence...................................... 5745 3 19 Government's Exhibits 335 through 337 received in evidence...................................... 5745 5 20 Government's Exhibits 343 through 386 received in evidence...................................... 5745 7 21 Government's Exhibit 391 received in evidence.... 5745 9 Government's Exhibit 392 received in evidence.... 5745 10 22 Government's Exhibit 388 received in evidence.... 5768 13
23 Defendant's Exhibit AQ received in evidence...... 5803 3 Defendant's Exhibit GB received in evidence...... 5807 19 24 25
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
